MH17
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Morrigu wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | The saddest thing is to see our Media in hysteria to get the best "death story". The media are celebrating this horror as it means ratings. I have started to switch channels as soon as a story starts. The horror is real and the media treat it as a game. |
This!
I understand they have to report but really there is reporting and there is reporting with what seems totally inappropriate glee 
The disrespect with which the bodies of these poor souls who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time are being subjected to is horrific - but the media seem to be engaged in a game of " who can provide the most gruesome details" - I hope the families of those lost are avoiding avoiding avoiding! |
Yeah I thought the same when the footage of farmers uncovering bodies came out. The poor families will be watching in case some crucial piece of news comes out, or a miracle happens, and until your love one is found, you'd be praying for that.
Reporting just seems so distasteful these days, is there one reported who won't steep low for a story.
And then sadly any compassion or feeling just gets lost on this board as yet another thread sinks into political arguments and history lessons.
"When the Power of Love,
Overcomes the Love of Power,
The world will know Peace."
Jimi Hendricks.
RIP
All the victims
Of flight 117.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | There's been a lot of supposition on how sophisticated BUK missile systems are. The reality is these are old stock obsolete truck based systems that do not have a particularly sophisticated system of guidance and tracking. |
"Supposition"? You are talking nonsense here, Ronnie. The capabilities of the SA-11/SA-17) missile systems (these days generally called by their Russian name, Buk) are very well known and very well documented. It is a formidable weapon which, like many American missiles, has been continuously developed and upgraded over a period of decades. There is nothing "simple" about these very powerful, high-tech weapons.
On culpability you make more sense - that was a very smooth, well-reasoned argument, It skates over, and founders on, two crucial facts, however.
First, the key difference between collateral damage in war and murder is that there has to actually be a war first. An illegal invasion by covert foreign troops not wearing their country's uniform and not backed by a declaration of war is very clearly not a war in the legal sense and the wholesale exemptions granted for legitimate military action do not apply. Alternatively, you can pretend that this has nothing to do with mad dog Russian extremists crossing the border and making trouble with Putin's blessing - you'd be a fool if you do, but let's just say you take that line - in which case we are left with an illegal and illegitimate civil uprising (which is common enough around the world) which has been gifted with very powerful and sophisticated weapons (which is not common) and is not under any sort of proper government - notice that they are unable or unwilling to even provide access to the crash site, basic security for the remains and the belongings of the dead, or any sort of properly constituted investigative procedure.
Second, you pretend that the Malaysian Airlines flight was doing something unusual or wrong or reckless, when in fact it was simply one of the 88 airlines flying high over that area, including several of the biggest and best-run airlines in the world. Lufthansa is an example; Singapore Airlines (widely recognised as the best and safest airline in the world) another. To blame Malaysian Airlines in the light of these facts is absurd.
It was murder, plain and simple, and the EU needs to act firmly now, hitting the lunatic ultimately responsible where it really hurts - in his wallet. Europe has other sources of natural gas it can turn to and should do so immediately. Only then will Putin learn that he has gone too far.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| The media are in a race over deaths. We had one family of three, then we had another news service of we have 5 from one family. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | The more you read on this the more obvious it is that no one knows what the hell they're talking about. Most people knew sweet FA about that region before this tragic incident, and they still know sweet FA about it.
The only reasonable position at present is to trust none of the parties concerned, and to trust no one's purported grasp of what is an extraordinarily complex geopolitical incident in an extremely poorly understood part of the world subject to any number of powerful geo-economic interests. |
A very well reasoned response. You are quite right. The situation in the Ukraine looks a lot like competing Fascisms at times. Russian backed 'ultra-nationalists', often from Russia itself are fighting the Ukrainian army and Ukrainian 'ultra-nationalist' groups in a very dirty war. Both sides are sponsored and supported by competing vested interests, the Donbas crew more overtly and less subtly by Putin's regime, and support from the West for the Ukrainians and Ukrainian 'ultra-nationalists' is more covert but occurring nonetheless.
I'm ignoring the sabre rattling going on in some quarters here and tend to think it was a tragic and stupid military accident. There's been a lot of supposition on how sophisticated BUK missile systems are. The reality is these are old stock obsolete truck based systems that do not have a particularly sophisticated system of guidance and tracking. They work off a simple radar blip. The conversations intercepted by and released by the Ukrainian intelligence service and the initial web commentary from the Donbas rebels indicate they thought it was a transport plane. Anyone expecting sophisticated behaviour from 'ultra-nationalist' Russians will be sadly mistaken. Dumb thugs is what they are mostly as anyone who has seen any of their propaganda and seen their behavior in political activity in the Ukraine and Russia will know. (and the Ukrainians aren't much better either).
How the Donbas rebels obtained the BUK system is still unresolved. Its been reported that a BUK system was captured from the Ukrainian military a couple of weeks ago. It seems that they have shot down three other aircraft in the past couple of weeks, something they have not been able to do before so that kind of fits also. That said the Russians could quite possibly given the BUK missile truck to them and trained them in its use too. That's something we are not likely to find out in a hurry. One journalist has speculated the truck is probably on the bottom of a lake by now anyway. Either way there was nothing to be gained in deliberately shooting down MH117. Its clearly been mistaken for a military target in a civil war. Is that murder? If they had deliberately targeted it yes, but given that is unlikely, its a sad and tragic accident. You can't say "Oh they were aiming to murder someone else, so its still murder" when they conceived it was a military target in a civil war. Using that logic we end up calling Allied soldiers in WW2 killing Germans in the Normandy landings murderers too. A military target in war civil or otherwise is unfortunately regarded as legitimate. We might not approve of the war itself but soldiers in war, civil or otherwise tend to try to kill each other.
Clearly the Russians have failed in making sure the crash site was secured so that objective processes of investigation took place and the sad remains of the dead were properly treated. Instead they have either directly or tacitly involved themselves in a cover up which is doing them no good internationally at all but then anyone who expects subtlety from Putin is probably fooling themselves. He is one step away from being a Fascist himself.
Talk of 'punishment' and 'justice' is easy to make but harder to achieve. This isn't Kosovo and the West don't want a direct war with Russia, just as much as the Russians don't want one with the West. No-one will touch the gas pipeline (a) because of civil dependency and profit generated in Europe from using Russian gas; and (b) because there is a lot of investment earning good returns that has gone into Russia in recent years. In international diplomacy, profit speaks very loudly.
Any investigation is now hopelessly compromised, it will reveal little or nothing we don't already strongly surmise. We may be able to determine who fired the missile but that's becoming more and more unlikely too.
Given there is no easy way to resolve this situation, tied up as it is in a very complex local situation, we need to be cautious and reasoned because there can be no winners in this situation. |
Great post, RR. Only quibble is that I wouldn't describe the conflict as 'competing fascisms'—while there are some very nasty nationalist types in Ukraine, they are not particularly represented within the current Ukrainian government. It's run at the moment mostly by the kind of (inevitably corrupt) oligarchs and career politicians who seem to dominate politics in that part of the world. The ultra-nationalists are there, but mostly on the fringes. I'm not sure I'd be asserting any real equivalence between the Ukrainian forces and the groups they're fighting against.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^If so, it is still only a very tiny step from "corrupt officials without much power" to "corrupt officials without much power open to bids from someone with power", still quite easily getting you to "competing fascisms" by some other name.
It's as if the entire history of imperialism has been erased by a sleight of hand that makes people believe "social quality at home means trustworthiness abroad", thus repeating the Iraq debate errors as if they never happened.
Yet the entire history of imperialism is "democracy at home, fascism abroad", making even actors from high quality societies extremely untrustworthy when it comes to international affairs. Such is the grip of the exceptionalist delusion.
(Not saying you hold otherwise, just commenting on the debate at large).
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Culprit wrote: | | The media are in a race over deaths. We had one family of three, then we had another news service of we have 5 from one family. |
Wasting your breath, seems the thread is it's own race - who can read the most boring political propaganda the fastest, or another way of putting it, "I'm smarter than you"
And this is why innocent people will keep dying
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Don't be silly, TP. It's purely a problem of having one thread for a topic with multiple aspects and posters with multiple specialisations, interests, and personalities.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Can you speak any foreign languages? |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | The media are in a race over deaths. We had one family of three, then we had another news service of we have 5 from one family. |
Wasting your breath, seems the thread is it's own race - who can read the most boring political propaganda the fastest, or another way of putting it, "I'm smarter than you"
And this is why innocent people will keep dying |
Huh? 
Discussing the context behind this incident and the best way to respond to it is not "political propaganda". And it's most certainly not the reason why innocent people are dying.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| pietillidie wrote: | | ^Don't be silly, TP. It's purely a problem of having one thread for a topic with multiple aspects and posters with multiple specialisations, interests, and personalities. |
Just so. In other words, a perfectly normal BBS thread, broadly similar in this respect to a thousand others here on a hundred different topics, and to millions of treads and real-life conversations going right back to the stone age.
(Which, by the way, seems to be where Putin and his cronies seem to be taking us.)
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| think positive wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | The media are in a race over deaths. We had one family of three, then we had another news service of we have 5 from one family. |
Wasting your breath, seems the thread is it's own race - who can read the most boring political propaganda the fastest, or another way of putting it, "I'm smarter than you"
And this is why innocent people will keep dying |
Post of the thread so far, stop analyzing every word and just think like real people! |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| Sky News went live to air rummaging through a dead persons luggage. Media scum. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| 1061 wrote: | | Post of the thread so far, stop analyzing every word and just think like me! |
Edited for accuracy.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| Yeah well I do live in the real world not some fantasy world like you guys seem to frequent. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Ah, yes, I've heard about this "real world". Do you guys have wifi there?
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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