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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Morrigu wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | I am happy you would work Sunday's and Public Holidays for just the standard hourly rate. I wouldn't. $50 an hour for a Sunday or Public Holiday is a pittance. |
Hmmm a pittance lucky you're not a Junior doctor in a busy Public Health Service then!.....
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I know when they graduate later they'll be part of the low paid 
(Having said that they are exploited in an outmoded, sexist & almost feudal system of training in many respects) Like everywhere I've worked with some keen Dr's etc & some princes & princesses along the way.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| I've pulled the Violin out for the Junior Doctor line. Woe is me. |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| watt price tully wrote: | | The fair work commission & the government will not touch nurses wages (meagre penalties in my view) because they would lose the political argument in the court of public opinion - like shooting Bambi. |
FWIW I think penalty rates should be standard - if it's time and half on Sat and Sun for someone working in a shop it should be time and half for nurses, cops et al!
They may be better educated and trained but their weekends are no more special than those of someone working in a shop etc.
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| watt price tully wrote: | I know when they graduate later they'll be part of the low paid
(Having said that they are exploited in an outmoded, sexist & almost feudal system of training in many respects) Like everywhere I've worked with some keen Dr's etc & some princes & princesses along the way. |
They have already graduated after years of University study and with a sizable HECS debt.
So it seems it is fine and dandy for them to be paid " a pittance" because after many years of working and further study and training they may eventually earn good coin? Or is it that it doesn't fit the narrative?
Obviously they don't have any expenses and none of them are juggling childcare - lucky!
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Narrative, shmarrative: are there that many poor Dr's or am I missing something?
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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luvdids 
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work
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| watt price tully wrote: |
Nah, I'm more senior than an RPN 3 & haven't read the outcomes yet in for the new agreement.
I used be an MRN 6 equivalent to an RPN 6 for about 7 years, & for a short time (1990) I was acting MRN 8 (Principal Nurse advisor for the state) with a substantive position of MRN 2!!!), interest rates were 'effen high, Mrs WPT pregnant, renovating our first house in Carnegie & doing two P/T Post Grad courses in town. Tell that to the youngsters of today..... |
So many initials! For the uneducated, what are MRN & RPNs? |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| luvdids wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
Nah, I'm more senior than an RPN 3 & haven't read the outcomes yet in for the new agreement.
I used be an MRN 6 equivalent to an RPN 6 for about 7 years, & for a short time (1990) I was acting MRN 8 (Principal Nurse advisor for the state) with a substantive position of MRN 2!!!), interest rates were 'effen high, Mrs WPT pregnant, renovating our first house in Carnegie & doing two P/T Post Grad courses in town. Tell that to the youngsters of today..... |
So many initials! For the uneducated, what are MRN & RPNs? |
RN = Registered Nurse
RPN = Registered psychiatric Nurse
MRN = Mental Retardation Nurse (doesn't exist anymore)
EN = Enrolled Nurse
NJTB = No Job Too Big
NJTS = No job Too Small
Prior to 1993 in Victoria you could do a 3 year nursing course in either General (RN), Psychiatry (RPN) & what was anachronistically called Mental Retardation (MRN)
Post 1993 with the introduction of the Nurses Act ( & some like me would say the hegemony of General nursing) there is a single registration that is, you basically do a 3 year course at a uni, and become eligible for registration with AHPRA as an Registered Nurse - then if you want do post grad studies to specialise.
You'll find that Nurses do a lot of other studies as well
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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luvdids
Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work
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| watt price tully wrote: | | luvdids wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
Nah, I'm more senior than an RPN 3 & haven't read the outcomes yet in for the new agreement.
I used be an MRN 6 equivalent to an RPN 6 for about 7 years, & for a short time (1990) I was acting MRN 8 (Principal Nurse advisor for the state) with a substantive position of MRN 2!!!), interest rates were 'effen high, Mrs WPT pregnant, renovating our first house in Carnegie & doing two P/T Post Grad courses in town. Tell that to the youngsters of today..... |
So many initials! For the uneducated, what are MRN & RPNs? |
RN = Registered Nurse
RPN = Registered psychiatric Nurse
MRN = Mental Retardation Nurse (doesn't exist anymore)
EN = Enrolled Nurse
NJTB = No Job Too Big
NJTS = No job Too Small
Prior to 1993 in Victoria you could do a 3 year nursing course in either General (RN), Psychiatry (RPN) & what was anachronistically called Mental Retardation (MRN)
Post 1993 with the introduction of the Nurses Act ( & some like me would say the hegemony of General nursing) there is a single registration that is, you basically do a 3 year course at a uni, and become eligible for registration with AHPRA as an Registered Nurse - then if you want do post grad studies to specialise.
You'll find that Nurses do a lot of other studies as well |
ohhhh, so you're not actually a nurse? As in, taking blood, giving medication, giving injections, etc? More an 'assessor' (for want of a better word) ? |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
A nurse is a nurse but not a nurse.
Qualifications keep going up (some of the best were the hospital trained ones)
Enrolled Nurses (AKA Div 2 nurses) used too be a tafe cert, now they need a diploma
Registered Nurses are a Degree now and usually a graduate year rotating through different areas under supervision* before any public health service will employ them as an actual registered Nurse.
The distinction these days between an RPN and an RN is really largely about union and EBA coverage rather than training at the operative level.
no a nurse is a nurse, but not a nurse, unless you're a midwife, then you're special.
Clear as mud?
Whoops, nearly forgot the *
Supervision in a clinical sense is subtly different to what we would consider supervision in an administrative sense.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Last edited by stui magpie on Wed Mar 01, 2017 5:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| luvdids wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | luvdids wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
Nah, I'm more senior than an RPN 3 & haven't read the outcomes yet in for the new agreement.
I used be an MRN 6 equivalent to an RPN 6 for about 7 years, & for a short time (1990) I was acting MRN 8 (Principal Nurse advisor for the state) with a substantive position of MRN 2!!!), interest rates were 'effen high, Mrs WPT pregnant, renovating our first house in Carnegie & doing two P/T Post Grad courses in town. Tell that to the youngsters of today..... |
So many initials! For the uneducated, what are MRN & RPNs? |
RN = Registered Nurse
RPN = Registered psychiatric Nurse
MRN = Mental Retardation Nurse (doesn't exist anymore)
EN = Enrolled Nurse
NJTB = No Job Too Big
NJTS = No job Too Small
Prior to 1993 in Victoria you could do a 3 year nursing course in either General (RN), Psychiatry (RPN) & what was anachronistically called Mental Retardation (MRN)
Post 1993 with the introduction of the Nurses Act ( & some like me would say the hegemony of General nursing) there is a single registration that is, you basically do a 3 year course at a uni, and become eligible for registration with AHPRA as an Registered Nurse - then if you want do post grad studies to specialise.
You'll find that Nurses do a lot of other studies as well |
ohhhh, so you're not actually a nurse? As in, taking blood, giving medication, giving injections, etc? More an 'assessor' (for want of a better word) ? |
There are lots of types of nurses.
To use the language (acronyms above)
I'm a:
RN - General Nurse
MRN - Mental Retardation Nurse
RPN - Psychiatric Nurse
These days I'm a senior (in more ways than one) Clinician & work in ED & with the Police.
I'm also a teacher Grad Dip ED (Melbourne Uni)
Have a BA (La Trobe)
& for my Psych Nursing did my post Grad Advanced Nursing in Mental Health at Melbourne Uni
Having said that: I do assess people's mental state & their risk. In my job we advise Dr's as as to what meds are best to give & how much, advise the nurses when given the meds what side effects & issues to look out for etc as one small part of our job.
I haven't done bloods for many years & prefer not to. I wouldn't want to have bloods taken from me.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ did you do your general training in a hospital or Uni WPT?
I'm so glad I did hospital for both general and psych even though eventually I upgraded both to post grad - I still think it was better - although that could just be me being old fashioned 
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Morrigu wrote: | ^ did you do your general training in a hospital or Uni WPT?
I'm so glad I did hospital for both general and psych even though eventually I upgraded both to post grad - I still think it was better - although that could just be me being old fashioned |
School of '78 (where I met Mrs WPT who was 6 months ahead of me).
Hospital based training of course! (Epworth Hospital when it was not as flash)
Same with MRN training
Psych was my post mid life crisis!!
Used to teach basic nursing skills - later taught at TAFE & Uni.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: |
This is the same logic that is used to justify wages being kept so low in the US. The theory is no more sophisticated than this: if you pay workers less, businesses stand a better chance of making profit margins, and they can therefore afford to employ more people (or other businesses are able to be started or kept afloat, and thus also offer more jobs). It doesn't matter how little you're paying workers; an argument can always be mounted that, if you paid them a little less, you'd create more jobs. And on it goes until you're justifying slave wages, which is precisely what big companies in third-world countries do: "if we didn't pay them $1 a day, we wouldn't be able to afford employing so many people".
You'll never convince me that the problem with our current economic system is that low-paid service workers are being paid too much or that the wage gap isn't big enough. The question of who gets paid for what on what day of the week is a legitimate discussion; but if at the end of the day there's no overall pay rise to account for the loss of weekend rates, it's a rip-off, and the unions are right to cry blue murder over it. |
You're oversimplifying the logic greatly, David. Since you did VCE economics, I think, you'll know that microeconomics long ago grasped the idea of a curve. There is a point where wages go lower and no extra labour is added, because the consumer satisfies the want for that particular product at just about any price point, or new capital must be expended, or workers will not trade their leisure time at that price, or whatever - and the curve has a turning point.
Do a thought experiment. Say wages were $500 per hour on Sundays ? What effect would that have ? Say wages were $5 per hour. Then say they were $1 per hour ... What would happen ?
I have no particular dog in this fight, and I am not a supporter of laissez-faire economics. I am absolutely in favour of solid, family-supporting minimum wages, though much less in favour of unions (especially public sector unions) which extort money and taxes from the public through market dominance and political power... but often politicians and ideologues of both right and left invoke economic theory in ways that would not gain a pass at first year university level. I think it is worth pointing that out when one hears it.
Finally, I don't know if you have spent much time in the US. You (and others) often write about it as though it is a hell-hole of poverty and wretchedness. It is in fact one of the most successful economies in the world, with a standard of living and opportunity most of the world regards with utter envy. Compared to Europe it is innovative, rich, militarily unchallengeable, a magnet for talented people from right across the world, and relentlessly dynamic. Australia, with an extraordinary unearned mining patrimony, is yet relatively poorer in terms of GDP per capita than the US. Compared to Venezuela and Greece and Italy and Cuba, and France, with their excellent social welfare systems, it's doing rather well.
I would not do things quite as they do, and like all nations the US has its problems. But by running a mixed economy with a bias toward market principles, they have created a very wealthy and desirable country. I'd not be too quick to assume that they are failing their citizens or that they are in thrall to a simple cardboard cutout of capitalist villainy.
Last point- you said : "if at the end of the day there's no overall pay rise to account for the loss of weekend rates, it's a rip-off, and the unions are right to cry blue murder over it". This is a fallacy, I think - if a rate is being paid that does not make economic or social sense, it is not a "rip-off" to take it away. It might even be the reversal of one. This is the standard problem with employment terms and government funding for anything - as soon as they are given, they considered sacrosanct, though they were not so five minutes before they were given, and even though the context in which they were given changes.
It's why I've learnt to push back very hard on extending worker benefits in our business. What starts as an always-tempting gesture of thanks and good will becomes a battleground when it no longer makes sense. About 5 years back, when we had two huge profit surges, we gave a special recognition award of a few thousand to every worker, as a gesture of thanks and celebration (above the normal bonus plans we operate). When it did not happen the third year, the atmosphere in several quarters was very sour as a result. Human nature is a strange thing.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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All I know is that I would much rather be in a low wage bracket or unemployed here than there. GDP per capita doesn't count for much if the majority of it is going to the 1%.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | All I know is that I would much rather be in a low wage bracket or unemployed here than there. GDP per capita doesn't count for much if the majority of it is going to the 1%. |
Are you sure you know that ? The US minimum wage is state-based, but typically about $11 per hour - though nearly $15 USD in New Jersey, for instance. This is $14.30 AUD.
Australia's minimum wage is about $16.50, the last time I looked. I am certain that the cost of goods in stores in the US is a lot less than in Australia, that taxes are lower, and that housing is a lot cheaper in most US cities than in Melbourne or Sydney. Medical care might be better in Australia, though Obamacare will have closed that gap if the man-child does not wreck it. And of course the US actually has a defence force, where Australia has a small guard that could not defend the country against conventional attack.
I'd be careful what you wish for.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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