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Big T
Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Location: Torino, Italy
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The blokes cheese has slipped off its cracker.
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | ^ All meaning depends on context. You rightly take certain wider context into account in decoding "chimp" to mean something racist, yet you deny context when it might disconfirm that it was so. Can't have it both ways. |
That's true however I'm happy to have a wager on the said context. |
It'd take some exceptional circumstance to tip the scales away from it being offensive, but (a) it's conceivable ; and (b) unless you think Maxwell is a liar, it is surprising that H did not take exception to it at the time, given his known views even at that time. So it seems strange, to say the least, unless the context was extenuating. |
Given what Shae McNamara has tweeted I've come to collect  That'll be one latte with a dash of chardonnay thank you very much.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| GoWoodsmen wrote: | | slangman wrote: | | K wrote: | | thesoretoothsayer wrote: | From WWOS:
| Quote: | | alleges he was called Chimp by Magpies teammates for years, a claim disputed by the club |
So let's wait for corroboration before we believe his story.
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Unfortunately, it seems they are disputing the duration, "for years", not the name called.
From the original article in The Age:
| Quote: |
Maxwell says of the "Chimp" nickname that Lumumba, with whom he was close, had never communicated to him that it hurt.
Collingwood on Friday said the nickname came about as a result of an incident at a party and was short-lived.
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The Chimp nickname needs context added to it.
Did they call him that because of his colour or because of something that he did? |
BINGO! In the article he stated the nickname came about because of an incident at a party but then provides no further information. It is the great non-thinking of our generation that as soon as someone utters a word people choose to apply their own intentions to it, rather than that of the person saying it. When I read the story I was horrified initially that the nickname Chimp could have been accepted by anyone at the club but what if the nickname came about because at a party he got up on a table and did an amazing impersonation of a gorilla or a "chimp"? I have to think that's possible but without context I'm sure as hell not going to jump to conclusions like so many. |
Yeah, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck & goes well with hoisin sauce then you know....Shae McNamara says hi. 
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| September Zeros wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | September Zeros wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | ^ All meaning depends on context. You rightly take certain wider context into account in decoding "chimp" to mean something racist, yet you deny context when it might disconfirm that it was so. Can't have it both ways. |
That's true however I'm happy to have a wager on the said context. |
Regardless of your willingness to wager - Context is not only absolutely relevant, it is unknown, but you watch the context be dismissed and the club get thrown under a bus- thanks to catchy one liners from the book of SJW's.
case in point - "casual racism" 
Don't tell me this release has not been planned for some time - just prior to finals- how miraculous. And don't tell me there's not a certain media group helping drive the wagon of "shame". Its just a pity for H we missed out on finals and the impact of this will be ZERO. In fact he has done us a favor in doing it now so as not to impact 2018.
Have your say H and then take your divisive ideals and kindly move on. |
You are making lots of points six points but who are you talking to?
Have I mentioned casual racism?
Have I mentioned its not certain media groups?
Have I mentioned shame? |
Wpt I really only quoted you for your mention of wager ....in that you seemed confident the name chimp had been used racially, The rest is general chit chat. |
Shae's given us his opinion. Lock it in. David mentioned much earlier words to the effect that when you're new etc that it can be difficult to express one's true feelings to fit in etc, It could be easier to let things slide etc.
I don't think for one minute that other players are or were necessarily overtly racist but I think this might represent a type of (dare I say it) insightless casual racism (not intended by the sayer to cause harm / hurt) but oblivious & perhaps unthinking of the harm it might cause.
I think this to be true of Ed's unfortunate use the term "King Kong" role for Adam Goodes when he was with the boys all those years ago: unthinking & insightless.
Having said that I'm still disgusted at the fawning acquiescence of Cricket Australia (that Sutherland scumbag) and the appalling behaviour not just by Harbijhan Singh but also Sachin Tendulkar when Harbi disparagingly called Roy a Monkey. That was said with malice & stands in contrast to the Harry O incident.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Redlight
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| watt price tully wrote: | | I don't think for one minute that other players are or were necessarily overtly racist but I think this might represent a type of (dare I say it) insightless casual racism (not intended by the sayer to cause harm / hurt) but oblivious & perhaps unthinking of the harm it might cause. |
I think that's likely. I also think that it's possible that H wasn't kicking up a fuss in those early days because he wasn't particularly perturbed at the time.
As evidence of that possibility I'll use 'Have You Been Paying Attention' as an example. That show routinely makes fun of Sam Pang's Asian heritage. Sam is often the source of those jokes.
As a regular viewer I would say that the show gives the impression of a group of friends with genuine affection for each other taking the mickey at every opportunity. In my experience that's pretty much the essence of Australian mateship and humour in action. Often it's the case that the more inappropriate the joke, the funnier it is.
What if, however, Sam Pang went through an 'awakening' and came out next year and said that he had battled racism all of his life and that he felt he had to go along with the Asian jokes to be accepted?
Would it change the intent and context of the original comments and circumstances? Would those people be retrospectively guilty of racism rather than good (and reciprocated) humour? |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| watt price tully wrote: | | September Zeros wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | September Zeros wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | ^ All meaning depends on context. You rightly take certain wider context into account in decoding "chimp" to mean something racist, yet you deny context when it might disconfirm that it was so. Can't have it both ways. |
That's true however I'm happy to have a wager on the said context. |
Regardless of your willingness to wager - Context is not only absolutely relevant, it is unknown, but you watch the context be dismissed and the club get thrown under a bus- thanks to catchy one liners from the book of SJW's.
case in point - "casual racism"
Don't tell me this release has not been planned for some time - just prior to finals- how miraculous. And don't tell me there's not a certain media group helping drive the wagon of "shame". Its just a pity for H we missed out on finals and the impact of this will be ZERO. In fact he has done us a favor in doing it now so as not to impact 2018.
Have your say H and then take your divisive ideals and kindly move on. |
You are making lots of points six points but who are you talking to?
Have I mentioned casual racism?
Have I mentioned its not certain media groups?
Have I mentioned shame? |
Wpt I really only quoted you for your mention of wager ....in that you seemed confident the name chimp had been used racially, The rest is general chit chat. |
Shae's given us his opinion. Lock it in. David mentioned much earlier words to the effect that when you're new etc that it can be difficult to express one's true feelings to fit in etc, It could be easier to let things slide etc.
I don't think for one minute that other players are or were necessarily overtly racist but I think this might represent a type of (dare I say it) insightless casual racism (not intended by the sayer to cause harm / hurt) but oblivious & perhaps unthinking of the harm it might cause.
I think this to be true of Ed's unfortunate use the term "King Kong" role for Adam Goodes when he was with the boys all those years ago: unthinking & insightless.
Having said that I'm still disgusted at the fawning acquiescence of Cricket Australia (that Sutherland scumbag) and the appalling behaviour not just by Harbijhan Singh but also Sachin Tendulkar when Harbi disparagingly called Roy a Monkey. That was said with malice & stands in contrast to the Harry O incident. |
All fair . All I ask is for the whole story before the world becomes morally outraged and starts throwing around highground cliches. It's not too much ask I don't think. Now we have a couple of testimonies in the negative.
Collingwood perhaps should come forward ... apologise to H for the past, show where it has moved forward and progressed as a club re these matters in our recent past.
Then we should all move on. Including H. Do you think he will / would?
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Wow. All those defending the club, our club, about calling a black player chimp as a nickname for what ever reason, I hope you were also on the side of a 13 year old kid who called Adam Goodes an ape because she thought he resembled one and not because he is aboriginal, as she, and me, didn't know that at the time.
Or is that a different thing?
Actually, yes it is, grown men, friends, 13 year old kid, screaming at the football to an opposition player who does have a passing resemblance to said creature, very different indeed.
You believe one but not the other, that they were not being intentionally racist. Doesn't really matter though. You just don't go there. A lesson a previously 13 year old kid knows all too well now, but hey, boys will be boys, they didn't mean it that way. What if they were St Kilda players?
Cheers
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Member 7167 
"What Good Fortune For Governments That The People Do Not Think" - Adolf Hitler.
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Location: The Collibran Hideout
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| think positive wrote: | Wow. All those defending the club, our club, about calling a black player chimp as a nickname for what ever reason, I hope you were also on the side of a 13 year old kid who called Adam Goodes an ape because she thought he resembled one and not because he is aboriginal, as she, and me, didn't know that at the time.
Or is that a different thing?
Actually, yes it is, grown men, friends, 13 year old kid, screaming at the football to an opposition player who does have a passing resemblance to said creature, very different indeed.
You believe one but not the other, that they were not being intentionally racist. Doesn't really matter though. You just don't go there. A lesson a previously 13 year old kid knows all too well now, but hey, boys will be boys, they didn't mean it that way. What if they were St Kilda players?
Cheers |
At the time I thought it was a complete over reaction to the 13 year old. There are certainly much better ways of handling a situation like this and there we certainly no winners that came out of this. Instead of getting the message out that this was offensive and undesirable irrespective of the motivation the whole message got lost and the situation was very divisive.
As for the referring to giving H the nickname of "chimp" it is certainly not a good look but before I form an opinion on it I would like to know the facts and context. On one hand the players concerned could be looked upon as being naive, insensitive and inappropriate. At the other extreme they could be raciest, offensive and malicious.
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Now Retired - Every Day Is A Saturday |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| September Zeros wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | September Zeros wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | September Zeros wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | ^ All meaning depends on context. You rightly take certain wider context into account in decoding "chimp" to mean something racist, yet you deny context when it might disconfirm that it was so. Can't have it both ways. |
That's true however I'm happy to have a wager on the said context. |
Regardless of your willingness to wager - Context is not only absolutely relevant, it is unknown, but you watch the context be dismissed and the club get thrown under a bus- thanks to catchy one liners from the book of SJW's.
case in point - "casual racism"
Don't tell me this release has not been planned for some time - just prior to finals- how miraculous. And don't tell me there's not a certain media group helping drive the wagon of "shame". Its just a pity for H we missed out on finals and the impact of this will be ZERO. In fact he has done us a favor in doing it now so as not to impact 2018.
Have your say H and then take your divisive ideals and kindly move on. |
You are making lots of points six points but who are you talking to?
Have I mentioned casual racism?
Have I mentioned its not certain media groups?
Have I mentioned shame? |
Wpt I really only quoted you for your mention of wager ....in that you seemed confident the name chimp had been used racially, The rest is general chit chat. |
Shae's given us his opinion. Lock it in. David mentioned much earlier words to the effect that when you're new etc that it can be difficult to express one's true feelings to fit in etc, It could be easier to let things slide etc.
I don't think for one minute that other players are or were necessarily overtly racist but I think this might represent a type of (dare I say it) insightless casual racism (not intended by the sayer to cause harm / hurt) but oblivious & perhaps unthinking of the harm it might cause.
I think this to be true of Ed's unfortunate use the term "King Kong" role for Adam Goodes when he was with the boys all those years ago: unthinking & insightless.
Having said that I'm still disgusted at the fawning acquiescence of Cricket Australia (that Sutherland scumbag) and the appalling behaviour not just by Harbijhan Singh but also Sachin Tendulkar when Harbi disparagingly called Roy a Monkey. That was said with malice & stands in contrast to the Harry O incident. |
All fair . All I ask is for the whole story before the world becomes morally outraged and starts throwing around highground cliches. It's not too much ask I don't think. Now we have a couple of testimonies in the negative.
Collingwood perhaps should come forward ... apologise to H for the past, show where it has moved forward and progressed as a club re these matters in our recent past.
Then we should all move on. Including H. Do you think he will / would? |
In answer to your question - Na. H aint going anywhere.
I just wonder why we were able to attract Varcoe / Wells......
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"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | ^ All meaning depends on context. You rightly take certain wider context into account in decoding "chimp" to mean something racist, yet you deny context when it might disconfirm that it was so. Can't have it both ways. |
That's true however I'm happy to have a wager on the said context. |
It'd take some exceptional circumstance to tip the scales away from it being offensive, but (a) it's conceivable ; and (b) unless you think Maxwell is a liar, it is surprising that H did not take exception to it at the time, given his known views even at that time. So it seems strange, to say the least, unless the context was extenuating. |
Given what Shae McNamara has tweeted I've come to collect That'll be one latte with a dash of chardonnay thank you very much. |
I don't think Shae McNamara's tweet proves anything, other than it was said by a few players, which is not disputed. It says nothing about how the nickname came to be used, or what it signified at the time between the parties involved as a result. It only says that McNamara counselled others against saying it, because he saw that it could be interpreted as a racial epithet (which is clearly true). It may have been borderline malicious, for all I know, or it may have been mates clowning about something that was understood between them, at the time, as having nothing to do with race.
What I do know is that someone who appoints themselves an "educator" in life is often someone best avoided.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Yes I take certain wider context into account in decoding chimp to mean something racist you deny context when it might disconfirm that it was so. |
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BBHS 
bbhs
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: Bellarine
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| I hate the way it's being perceived that he's lost the plot. He's always been a different type of thinker. I don't agree with the way others are perceiving his racism for him. Only he could have been offended by the actions alleged. Hope he can get some closure from this all. |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| think positive wrote: | Wow. All those defending the club, our club, about calling a black player chimp as a nickname for what ever reason, I hope you were also on the side of a 13 year old kid who called Adam Goodes an ape because she thought he resembled one and not because he is aboriginal, as she, and me, didn't know that at the time.
Or is that a different thing?
Actually, yes it is, grown men, friends, 13 year old kid, screaming at the football to an opposition player who does have a passing resemblance to said creature, very different indeed.
You believe one but not the other, that they were not being intentionally racist. Doesn't really matter though. You just don't go there. A lesson a previously 13 year old kid knows all too well now, but hey, boys will be boys, they didn't mean it that way. What if they were St Kilda players?
Cheers |
Again all i see is people seeking facts. Many are neither condemning or defending either party. I don't think its wise to jump all over the club every time someone says anything negative about it. Robbos 11 Collingwood drug takers would say hi ....if they existed.
Facts and context.
As for the difference between a 13yr old and a 17yr footballer ---- don't males mature slower? Or were the footballers in question not 17. Were the ones calling him chimp 18, 19, 20, 30?? Does it matter? Was it racially driven? Was it due to something he did, something he said? Was it men being cruel and heartless? Boys being immature and stupid? Was it mates giving someone a nickname? Was it one guy, two guys, three??? Did the club do anything at them time? Has the culture changes now? are there policies in place now? Do we need to worry about it happening again?
I think at the very least its safe to say now after a couple of testimonies that it happened. Something that was not outwardly clear on page one of this thread.
I like to reserve judgment before execution and avoid Jumping to correct conclusions.
The club should apologise, H should accept. And then he should move on.
One of these will never happen.
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Redlight wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | I don't think for one minute that other players are or were necessarily overtly racist but I think this might represent a type of (dare I say it) insightless casual racism (not intended by the sayer to cause harm / hurt) but oblivious & perhaps unthinking of the harm it might cause. |
I think that's likely. I also think that it's possible that H wasn't kicking up a fuss in those early days because he wasn't particularly perturbed at the time.
As evidence of that possibility I'll use 'Have You Been Paying Attention' as an example. That show routinely makes fun of Sam Pang's Asian heritage. Sam is often the source of those jokes.
As a regular viewer I would say that the show gives the impression of a group of friends with genuine affection for each other taking the mickey at every opportunity. In my experience that's pretty much the essence of Australian mateship and humour in action. Often it's the case that the more inappropriate the joke, the funnier it is.
What if, however, Sam Pang went through an 'awakening' and came out next year and said that he had battled racism all of his life and that he felt he had to go along with the Asian jokes to be accepted?
Would it change the intent and context of the original comments and circumstances? Would those people be retrospectively guilty of racism rather than good (and reciprocated) humour? |
The good natured stuff on that show is one thing, I wonder if you actually spoke with Sam pang about his experience growing up what that might look like. I accept that can occur too.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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