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ANNODAM 
Rebel Heart Tour - The Forum, Los Angeles 27/10/2015.
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Location: Eltham, VIC.
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^ I know, I know.
Don't even suggest such a thing about COLL being involved!
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WE WERE ROBBED, RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME, RIGHT IN FRONT OF MEEE!
N.Y METS, N.Y GIANTS, PENRITH PANTHERS & HOBART HURRICANES FAN.
WE ALL LOOK GOOD AT TRAINING, IT'S THE MATCHES THAT COUNT! |
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Doc63
Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: Newport
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| ANNODAM wrote: | ^ I know, I know.
Don't even suggest such a thing about COLL being involved! |
I remember The Weapon telling Luke Darcy during that interview he gave on Channel 7 that Hird told him that he wanted whatever Collingwood were on.
Whether he is a credible witness or not is debatable.
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I hold a cup of wisdom, but there is nothing within. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Doc63 wrote: | | ANNODAM wrote: | ^ I know, I know.
Don't even suggest such a thing about COLL being involved! |
I remember The Weapon telling Luke Darcy during that interview he gave on Channel 7 that Hird told him that he wanted whatever Collingwood were on.
Whether he is a credible witness or not is debatable. |
A number of Essendon players bulked up big time over a pre season. How many of our players have done that?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | Big T wrote: | | WADA have the power to deregister any team which has a significant portion of the playing list banned |
And this is what ps me off over this whole thing. If there are mass bannings, let's say 15 or more players, the AFL, around the world, will have a similar reputation to the Tour de France. Not the same profile of course, but it will be known, and the league will be mentioned alongside competitions like the MLB. I don't take any delight in seeing the Bombers suffer, because of what it means for our game. I'd have much preferred that they were able to prove complete innocence, unfortunately that no longer seems likely.
In the end, if suspensions are handed down, I'd expect less than 10 and it may even be significantly less. If I remember rightly, only 11 players admitted to taking any form of Thymosin, so ASADA may end up only targeting them and possibly a subset of those against whom their evidence is strongest.
Whatever the case, if suspensions go ahead, any suspensions, blackest day in Australian sport would not be an exaggeration. Particularly as suspensions look very likely in the NRL (now that, I can take some delight in  ).
This is the reason why I always felt the punishments handed down to Essendon were lenient. "Poor governance" was the spin term used to make their transgressions seem less serious, like maybe they'd forgotten to sign a few forms. This spin may have worked on Essendon fans, but the true story is that it has been proven and admitted by Essendon that they allowed a major injection programme to continue with little oversight and, they say, no documentation. That is incredibly serious.
And now we are seeing the results of it. With Essendon facing a drugs claim that they have no way of defending. The AFL should have had better rules and oversight in place itself, but there's no denying that Essendon, whether or not performance enhancing drugs were taken, did not live up to their duty of care to their players and have left them with no defense against serious allegations. This is why they're clinging to their desperate court challenge against the legality of the investigation, because in a tribunal where they need to put forward their side of what happened, they don't have a leg to stand on, and it's all their own fault, not the AFL, not ASADA, not Demetriou, Essendon and only Essendon. |
Top post too good to bury
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Doc63 wrote: | | ANNODAM wrote: | ^ I know, I know.
Don't even suggest such a thing about COLL being involved! |
I remember The Weapon telling Luke Darcy during that interview he gave on Channel 7 that Hird told him that he wanted whatever Collingwood were on.
Whether he is a credible witness or not is debatable. |
A number of Essendon players bulked up big time over a pre season. How many of our players have done that? |
We wish!
Good point
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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MOTR
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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| GreekLunatic wrote: | | This could take years. How can hird come back and coach next year |
He can't. This outcome was inevitable months ago. Hird has no place in an AFL club.
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Be Staunch, Be Proud, Be Collingwood |
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MOTR
Joined: 24 Apr 2003
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| Doc63 wrote: | | David wrote: | As much as I'm keen to see Essendon held to account over this, the inevitable appearance of show cause notices is just a further step in ensuring that the players are made scapegoats for the unethical and manipulative decisions of their superiors. The real villains of the piece are Hird, Thompson, Dank, Robinson and the rest of the Essendon administration who allowed this to take place under their watch, and they and their club should be severely punished. Unfortunately, it seems that their sanctions will be minor compared to that inflicted on the young men who placed faith in their club's hierarchical structure.
If any good can come out of this, perhaps it will be a stronger AFLPA and less tolerance for authoritarian club structures. But that's being very optimistic. |
While I agree with what you say here, the players are ultimately responsible for what goes into theie body.
Every professional sportsperson in this country is given a book containing what drugs they can & cant take, and there is also a reverse charge phone number that they can call, 24/7, from anywhere in the world.
Yes, they have been shafted by people who they trusted, but they allowed themselves to be.
Do you think Eastern Block and Chinese athletes had a choice, like the Essendon players did? |
Excellent point. How many of us had zero compassion for those athletes.
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Be Staunch, Be Proud, Be Collingwood |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| MOTR wrote: |
Do you think Eastern Block and Chinese athletes had a choice, like the Essendon players did? |
Excellent point. How many of us had zero compassion for those athletes.[/quote]
C'mon we can't be compared to the Eastern Bloc or China, we only voted Abbott in last year. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| 1061 wrote: | | MOTR wrote: |
Do you think Eastern Block and Chinese athletes had a choice, like the Essendon players did? |
Excellent point. How many of us had zero compassion for those athletes. |
Yep good point. They would have had much less choice than the Essendon players and were given no leniency.
It may be unfair, but there's no way around it. The offense occurs within the athlete's body and it's the athletes that need to be banned if an offense has taken place. If there was an out for players who "didn't know" it would be far more difficult to ever prove guilt and too easy for support staff to purposely supplement an athlete's supplements.
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Well done boys! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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^ But at least in team sport there's an opportunity to inflict serious punishment upon a club. Players being given the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean that the club would get away with it—indeed, Essendon could well still be deregistered with players given the opportunity to nominate for the draft at the end of the year.
Personally, I'd only be targeting the players directly if they had initiated and designed the PED program themselves, like Justin Charles did. Otherwise, I see the club as the higher authority bearing the liability. That's not ASADA's view, but I think they're quite wrong.
Olympic sportspeople are different because there is no real club to punish. Perhaps the entire country could be banned from the next games, but that just penalises the next lot of innocent athletes. Because they're competing as individuals, I'm not sure that there is any chance but to ban the ones who take substances. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have sympathy for Chinese athletes or see them as victims of a corrupt structure, which they undoubtedly are in many cases.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Your to young to remember, when the Chinese swim team came out and stood next to the mighty, and massively muscled Lisa curry, it was mind boggling. That was not individual choice. That team was a lab experiment.
As for Charles, bit harsh, he was trying to get back from an injury, not get a match winning advantage. Yes was wrong, but the bombers crimes far worse.
I won't bother elaborating I know your stand on personal responsibility, we argued it enough.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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I spent my day yesterday firstly reading several newspapers then at the races with some friends 2 of which happen to be avid AFL fans and legal eagles.
I asked hem how Essendon could possible defend the indefensible ?
They said they won't be trying to defend that they took an illicit product but they will seek a loop hole in regards to the ASADA/AFL breached the AFL protocol for an investigation.
Apparently the AFL doesn't have the same powers as ASADA and information gained during the investigation was shared between the 2 bodies.
There premise will be that the AFL wouldn't have uncovered the same information as ASADA and vice a versa.
They both stated they didn't think this would hold up in a federal court given the significant nature of what was a systematic doping program conducted under the guidance of head coach and his minions.
More interestingly they thought that the head of ASADA being so public and openly offering reduced penalties to the players that the bummers will be left stranded high and dry in court.
They both believe Essendon's action is all about self preservation and not about the players. One stated if he was representing a player he would advise them to immediately look for a deal with ASADA and cop his 6 months and move on.
I like most do feel for the players. Even in this time and age when players are told they are totally responsible for what goes into there bodies they have been duped by the club. Yes they signed consent forms but those forms apparently stated that they wouldn't be injected with any product on the ASADA or WADA banned lists which hasn't happened.
The onus is now on the players to prove beyond doubt that they were never injected with Thymosin beta B which given there is no records of any sort to be found they are shot ducks.
Paul Little is such a pompous a$$ like his love child they honestly believe they are beyond the reach of the AFL and ASADA.
On a side note they both stated they couldn't believe that Essendon haven't immediately came out and said Hird can't coach next year no matter of the final outcome as his position is completely untenable now.
Like An Linking says this is bigger than Essendon this is about the game we all love.
Interesting times ahead for Gill and the commission I believe. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | | As for Charles, bit harsh, he was trying to get back from an injury, not get a match winning advantage. Yes was wrong, but the bombers crimes far worse. |
Don't get me wrong, I felt sorry for him too. But what he did was very serious and needed to be dealt with. The penalty he got was appropriate—perhaps even too lenient.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| David wrote: | ^ But at least in team sport there's an opportunity to inflict serious punishment upon a club. Players being given the benefit of the doubt doesn't mean that the club would get away with it—indeed, Essendon could well still be deregistered with players given the opportunity to nominate for the draft at the end of the year.
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This could work, but only where almost the entire playing list is implicated. And what if most of the club didn't know? If it was just a rogue sports scientist? Let them off like we did the players, or should they have more responsibility?
I do have some sympathy for the players in this but they are not entirely blameless. Just like the club needed to have more closely controlled the supplements programme, the players should have more seriously questioned it.
| David wrote: |
Olympic sportspeople are different because there is no real club to punish. Perhaps the entire country could be banned from the next games, but that just penalises the next lot of innocent athletes.
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Does not your system of punishing the club, not the player, run the risk of punishing the innocent athletes at the club?
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Well done boys! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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To an extent, but less overtly. Obviously Olympic sportspeople can't change countries. AFL players won't be guaranteed of getting a chance elsewhere, but they'll at least be able to nominate for the draft.
It goes without saying that there's going to be negative consequences for everyone involved in a situation like this. I guess the question is whether the players should be punished directly.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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