MH17
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I could but let's get back to that later. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| HAL wrote: | | I could but let's get back to that later. |
They just don't get it do they tinhead. |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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Yeah lets just keep it simple and talk about goodies and baddies shall we?
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"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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The Prototype 
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| Tannin wrote: | | After Proto's contribution, I changed my mind. I now agree with Think Positive. |
Yeah, sorry, thought it was an interesting thing to add. Will depart with just one more addition.
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/sunderland-fans-fundraise-remember-newcastle-7457769?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
| Quote: | Supporters of Newcastle United’s bitterest rivals, Sunderland, have raised more than £13,000 for a floral tribute to Toon fans killed in the Ukrainian air disaster.
Super fans John Adler, 63, and Liam Sweeney, 28, were killed while travelling aboard doomed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 to see their beloved Newcastle United play in a pre-season tour in New Zealand. |
Been some very good tributes written by some of the Sunderland fans, sadly there's been some idiot on twitter posting some disgusting stuff, but otherwise it's good to see rival fans able to come together in this time like that.
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Ðavâgé
https://www.facebook.com/davehardingphotography
https://www.facebook.com/Davage |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| The Prototype wrote: | | Been some very good tributes written by some of the Sunderland fans, sadly there's been some idiot on twitter posting some disgusting stuff |
What is it with these morons? I mean. what is the point? I simply do not understand what motivates these tossbags at times like this. Is there a point? Is there even a common reason, a thread of motivation of some kind? I can't see it. In the end, all I can do is shrug and say that some people are beyond understanding or respecting.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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That's truly disgusting. Where do these people come from, do they have no sense of decency, no morals?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: |
Great post, RR. Only quibble is that I wouldn't describe the conflict as 'competing fascisms'—while there are some very nasty nationalist types in Ukraine, they are not particularly represented within the current Ukrainian government. It's run at the moment mostly by the kind of (inevitably corrupt) oligarchs and career politicians who seem to dominate politics in that part of the world. The ultra-nationalists are there, but mostly on the fringes. I'm not sure I'd be asserting any real equivalence between the Ukrainian forces and the groups they're fighting against. |
Fascism !??? The "conflict" in the Ukraine started when the Ukraine government abandoned plans to sign an association with that well-known fascist (!) organisation the EU. At subsequent demonstrations, 77 protesters were killed in the main square by the pro-Moscow government before Yanukovych fled to Russia, and that country then began its campaign of destabilisation. A subsequent election in Ukraine, monitored by the OSCE and found to be broadly fair, elected Piotr Poroshenko. If the demonstrators and current Ukrainian government are "fascist", then they're giving fascism a good name. Or, more likely, they're not fascist at all, unless you are recycling Russian propaganda.
Source - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18010123
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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^ Mugwump, not sure if that was directed at me—I think (correct me if I'm wrong) the fascism RR and PTID are referring to is the hand played in the situation by the West. I don't think they're accusing the Ukrainian regime itself of being fascist.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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I was reacting to RR's comment (I recognise that you demurred at it):
"The situation in the Ukraine looks a lot like competing Fascisms at times. Russian backed 'ultra-nationalists', often from Russia itself are fighting the Ukrainian army and Ukrainian 'ultra-nationalist' groups in a very dirty war."
The "Fascist" line has been trotted out of Moscow ever since the Ukrainian demonstrators sought to overthrow Yanukovych. The only aspiration that has been consistently expressed by the new Ukrainian govt and the anti-Yanukovych has been to get closer to the EU. They must be the first Fascists ever to have that ambition.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| Mugwump wrote: | I was reacting to RR's comment (I recognise that you demurred at it):
"The situation in the Ukraine looks a lot like competing Fascisms at times. Russian backed 'ultra-nationalists', often from Russia itself are fighting the Ukrainian army and Ukrainian 'ultra-nationalist' groups in a very dirty war."
The "Fascist" line has been trotted out of Moscow ever since the Ukrainian demonstrators sought to overthrow Yanukovych. The only aspiration that has been consistently expressed by the new Ukrainian govt and the anti-Yanukovych has been to get closer to the EU. They must be the first Fascists ever to have that ambition. |
Firstly I said "Ukrainian army and Ukrainian 'ultra-nationalist' groups". Obviously that's a distinction you don't comprehend.
Fascism is alive and well in Ukraine as these links will illustrate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/18/yes_there_are_bad_guys_in_the_ukrainian_government
http://hnn.us/article/154906
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_Sector
http://www.sott.net/article/278894-Kiev-lets-loose-Men-in-Black-Death-Squads-on-East-Ukrainian-Civilians
Anyone who thinks the Ukrainian 'ultra-nationalists' don't have militias operating in Donbas are fooling themselves. Its well documented. They may or may not be supported by the current Ukrainian Government. At times they are fighting Russian imported or local Donbas pro Russian ultra-nationalists. Thus my view on the issue.
Obviously the Ukrainian Government - and its official army - has many different elements in it, many of which could not be characterised as Fascist. That's why I said what I said. However ultra-nationalism/Fascism is alive and well in Ukraine which is why I said its a "battle of competing Fascisms" at times. What is going on internally in Ukraine at the moment has more complex roots than a squabble over EU membership or not. Personally I find both sides of the conflict reprehensible and support neither. Maybe Obama's call for a peace conference and a UN moderated truce isn't such a bad idea right now. It is probably the sanest solution I've seen so far and would certainly put both sides' far right on a leash while a sane solution is found.
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"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ of course there are bad guys on both sides. I'm sure that was true in any conflict you care to name - but you seem to be suggesting that this makes the cause of the pro-EU Ukrainian government equivalent to that of Russia and its civilian-airline shooters...The"fascist" line has been Putin propaganda from the start. The majority of Ukrainians are sick of being shackled to a corpse-like Russia that is slowly dying of autocratic misgovernment, corruption, economic backwardness and demographic decline. They would like to orient their future toward the democratic Eu, and obtain a future like that of Poland and the Baltics, free at last of the regional protection racket that is Russia. Why would democratic Australians not support them in their aspiration ?
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| The Prototype wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | After Proto's contribution, I changed my mind. I now agree with Think Positive. |
Yeah, sorry, thought it was an interesting thing to add. Will depart with just one more addition.
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/sunderland-fans-fundraise-remember-newcastle-7457769?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
| Quote: | Supporters of Newcastle United’s bitterest rivals, Sunderland, have raised more than £13,000 for a floral tribute to Toon fans killed in the Ukrainian air disaster.
Super fans John Adler, 63, and Liam Sweeney, 28, were killed while travelling aboard doomed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 to see their beloved Newcastle United play in a pre-season tour in New Zealand. |
Been some very good tributes written by some of the Sunderland fans, sadly there's been some idiot on twitter posting some disgusting stuff, but otherwise it's good to see rival fans able to come together in this time like that. |
you shouldn't apologize for your first post, and I think Tannin meant it was pretty disgusting too, or at least he should have!
just read the article about it, and also the one about Jason biggs silly joke, does anyone want to buy my malasian airlines frequent flyer points?
now I love the USA, but I can tell you now if you made a 9/11 joke, no one would be laughing, and you cannot burn the US flag. and fair enough too. some things should never be made fun of.
another interesting article, whereas our government seem to bow to the billionaires, not so Russia;
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699984/Russian-billionaires-horror-sanctions-threat-theyre-terrified-Putin-speak-out.html
on the whole, these things tend to bring out the best and the worst of humankind, your sports teams: the best, THAT reporter: the dumb, and those looters, the worst
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| Tannin wrote: | | The Prototype wrote: | | Been some very good tributes written by some of the Sunderland fans, sadly there's been some idiot on twitter posting some disgusting stuff |
What is it with these morons? I mean. what is the point? I simply do not understand what motivates these tossbags at times like this. Is there a point? Is there even a common reason, a thread of motivation of some kind? I can't see it. In the end, all I can do is shrug and say that some people are beyond understanding or respecting. |
Totally agree with you. Have thought about this issue many times but have never found a rational or logical reason for their inadequacy other than them wanting to be noticed because they were dropped on their heads by their mothers when babies.... 
THIS is also the typical frustration most posters here have with the stupid bloody "perceptive fellow" comments on Collingwood. I share your line of questioning and probing but at times, there are just NO answers......  |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | They would like to orient their future toward the democratic Eu, and obtain a future like that of Poland and the Baltics, free at last of the regional protection racket that is Russia. Why would democratic Australians not support them in their aspiration ? |
You may have forgotten the Iraq War debates, but that has an eerily familiar echo.
Of course everyone supports those who want to rid themselves of the authoritarian menace of Russia, just as everyone wanted to free Iraq of Saddam Hussein and Afghanistan of the Taliban, and everyone wants to free North Korea of the Kims.
The challenge, nay ethical responsibility, is achieving that without unleashing far greater destruction and chaos, and that takes much greater knowledge than most people have. Meanwhile, the handful of people who do have the requisite knowledge are either untrustworthy or not in positions of influence—precisely as was the case with Iraq and Afghanistan.
The error you keep making is that you continue to confuse domestic political systems with international actions, yet the entire history of international actions bears little relation to the quality of the home society. Foreign actions are frequently a case of "democracy at home, fascism abroad".
Unfortunately, one gets the impression that Ukraine is to Russia and Germany (and neighbours) what North Korea is to China and the US (and allies), and those demanding strong action of some vague sort are doing so from a position of remote comfort and ignorance.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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