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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| sherrife wrote: | I couldn't disagree with YOU more strongly.
I don't want to debate with committed Nazis, I want them under house arrest, for life. Reasonable conditions, and certainly no torture, but also no freedom to spread their destructive ideas.
I don't want to debate with sexists, racists or homophobes, I want them to be silenced by the strength of the open-minded majority.
Some ideas are just wrong. |
You seem to be practically encouraging censorship here. That is concerning.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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sherrife 
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
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So I should give Howard a hug if I see him should I? I should actively look for xenophobes so that we can engage in "healthy" debates right?
Do you honestly believe that I (or anyone else) will be able to convince a firm racist to change his/her mind after a a bit of a chat?
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
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| David wrote: | | sherrife wrote: | I couldn't disagree with YOU more strongly.
I don't want to debate with committed Nazis, I want them under house arrest, for life. Reasonable conditions, and certainly no torture, but also no freedom to spread their destructive ideas.
I don't want to debate with sexists, racists or homophobes, I want them to be silenced by the strength of the open-minded majority.
Some ideas are just wrong. |
You seem to be practically encouraging censorship here. That is concerning. |
Censoring Nazis, wow, that's a radical position. 
RE the xenophobes, that's a very different thing, that's just about using social pressure in a positive way. If we put a random sample of Australians into a room and asked them to debate equal rights for gay couples, I guarantee you no body would be arguing what the Libs (and even Labor to some extent) do.
_________________
I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs
Last edited by sherrife on Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Are you really a "it"? My brain contains 58272 categories, but not one that matches your last input. Who are you talking about? Can you please rephrase that with fewer ideas, or different thoughts? |
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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| sherrife wrote: | I couldn't disagree with YOU more strongly.
I don't want to debate with committed Nazis, I want them under house arrest, for life. Reasonable conditions, and certainly no torture, but also no freedom to spread their destructive ideas.
I don't want to debate with sexists, racists or homophobes, I want them to be silenced by the strength of the open-minded majority.
Some ideas are just wrong. |
So except for the choice of your ideas, how exactly are you any different to a totalitarian regime?
Under your model, the only ideas you are free to express are the ones you approve of, and you're only permitted outside your house if you subscribe to an approved political ideology.
You don't work for the Ministry of Truth by any chance do you?
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
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Hold on Hold on. I'm was only talking about Nazis here. Not general right-wing pricks like Howard.
Are you saying you support the right of fascists to openly organise and spread their ideas?
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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I believe the strongest test of your beliefs is engaging in healthy debate with someone who disagrees with you. At worst, it will make you reconsider your views, and at best, it will help to confirm them.
| sherrife wrote: | | David wrote: | | You seem to be practically encouraging censorship here. That is concerning. |
Censoring Nazis, wow, that's a radical position.
RE the xenophobes, that's a very different thing, that's just about using social pressure in a positive way. If we put a random sample of Australians into a room and asked them to debate equal rights for gay couples, I guarantee you no body would be arguing what the Libs (and even Labor to some extent) do. |
Well, personally I oppose any censorship of any ideology, but that's just me. I was more concerned about your second paragraph, referring to homophobes and xenophobes being 'silenced'. Whether that be by social pressure, or whatever.
on your random sample theory - in discussions with people I know (across the political spectrum), I mostly find myself in the minority with my views on same-sex marriage. Most seem to have some problems with it, although perhaps that is due to lack of thought on the issue than blatant homophobia.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
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Well I've never met a single person who has a problem with it, and a clear 57% of Australians over 16 think it should be legal (Rudd won with a smaller majority than that). I would wager that if you restricted it to people under 30 it would be closer to 70-80%.
http://www.australianmarriageequality.com/news/20070621.htm
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I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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| sherrife wrote: | Well I've never met a single person who has a problem with it, and a clear 57% of Australians over 16 think it should be legal (Rudd won with a smaller majority than that). I would wager that if you restricted it to people under 30 it would be closer to 70-80%.
http://www.australianmarriageequality.com/news/20070621.htm |
Youve NEVER met a SINGLE person who has a problem with it?
....yet almost 10 MILLION people in this country (on your statistics) dont think it should be legal....and youve never met a single one of them?
Yes, lets restrict it to people over 16 but under 30.... thats not exactly what i would call a real "random sample."
What it does sound more like, is the kind of sample that wins Mugabe an election with 90 odd percent of the vote. |
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sherrife
Victorian Socialists - people before profit
Joined: 17 Apr 2003
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| Zakal wrote: |
Yes, lets restrict it to people over 16 but under 30.... thats not exactly what i would call a real "random sample."
What it does sound more like, is the kind of sample that wins Mugabe an election with 90 odd percent of the vote. |
LOL What I meant was: the vast majority of people born in the last few decades are open-minded about the issue, whereas for older people, social stigma was still in full force for most of their lives.
Not that older people are less important, or anything like that. Jeez, talk about a total misunderstanding!
_________________
I would be ashamed to admit that I had risen from the ranks. When I rise it will be with the ranks... - Eugene Debs |
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Piethagoras' Theorem 
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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Well if I'm 'left', so be it. I never chose to be. In fact, I'm not really quite sure what being 'left' or 'right' is. I guess 'left' is a good thing yeh. 
Even so, I'm sure there's some 'right' view out there that I can agree with. Is there?
I'm not a huge fan of unions. Only because of the way some operate. But, I do believe they serve a purpose, providing that purpose is not too self indulgent. What does that make me?
*sigh* ... surely I'm confused 
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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| sherrife wrote: | | Zakal wrote: |
Yes, lets restrict it to people over 16 but under 30.... thats not exactly what i would call a real "random sample."
What it does sound more like, is the kind of sample that wins Mugabe an election with 90 odd percent of the vote. |
LOL What I meant was: the vast majority of people born in the last few decades are open-minded about the issue, whereas for older people, social stigma was still in full force for most of their lives.
Not that older people are less important, or anything like that. Jeez, talk about a total misunderstanding! |
hehe well it makes it harder when word what you intend to be arbitrary generalisations as though they were asserting they were unequivocal facts.
But yes, on that revised assessment im inclined to agree that a growing majority is changing the 'national perspective' on that particualr issue.
...but that never would have happened had the same-sex viewpoint been completely suppressed and silenced by the weight majority opinon. It was for a long time, and once that suppression was removed, the new ideas flourished.
...thats exactly what Dave and i are talking about. |
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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| frankiboy wrote: | Well if I'm 'left', so be it. I never chose to be. In fact, I'm not really quite sure what being 'left' or 'right' is. I guess 'left' is a good thing yeh.
Even so, I'm sure there's some 'right' view out there that I can agree with. Is there?
I'm not a huge fan of unions. Only because of the way some operate. But, I do believe they serve a purpose, providing that purpose is not too self indulgent. What does that make me?
*sigh* ... surely I'm confused |
Welll quite frankly mr franki, you're goiing left and right so quickly you're going to give yourself whiplash. And you won't be al right then....right? |
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Piethagoras' Theorem
the hypotenuse, is always a cakewalk
Joined: 29 May 2006
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right
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Formally frankiboy and FrankieGoesToCollingwood. |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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Interesting discussion guys. Generally, I'm pretty much with Omar on this. Two points: Firstly, as much as I try to remain open to different perspectives, some ideas are (imo) so abhorent that they should not or need not be subject to debate.
Secondly, you seem to be presuming that all people debating a point or putting forward a particular ideology are capable or willing to engage in rational debate. This simply isn't true. Fascists, for example, believe in a doctrine that is fundamentally irrational. They reject reason in favour of emotion and the politics of 'gutfeel'. Populists quite often do the same. It makes having a rational debate on a point impossible.
Some ideologies are worthless and some people are disgusting people because of the views they hold. In my experience, most of the latter are incapable of holding a rational discussion or listening to opposing views. |
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