Deportation
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | Hmm not so subtle dig from mister apparently Switzerland noted!
Your talking foreign nationals who apparently came here to make this their home. Who then turn around and plot terrorist attacks against peaceful folk, both born and raised here, and immigrants who have come here, intergrated into the community and live peaceful productive lives. Yes they have to live somewhere, send them back where they came from. They wanted to come here for a better life, and then they want to change this country, this better life, into what they think it should be, either the same version, or a different version of what they left?
And they want to kill the before mentioned peaceful citizens while doing it. Seriously David, your deluded. You cannot rehabilitate shitheads like these, and we should waste money trying. |
On the contrary, many of these wannabe terrorists are young hotheads who have barely even reached adulthood. You really think a brainwashed 18-year-old can't be rehabilitated? |
Perhaps David they could attend the Springvale Madrassa next to the Al-Furquan Islamic bookshop , or see Mr Hallak the principal of al- Taqual college in Outer Western Melbourne or then again how about the spiritual leader of hisbut al tahrir or just hisbut al tahrir?
Of course jail would provide even better rehab prospects, after all not many people learn their radicalism in jail especially not muslims or white trash right wing christian supremacists 
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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My issue is that deportation just seems like handballing a problem somewhere else. What purpose does it serve? What point does it prove? That to be Australian requires you to not be a criminal? Unfortunately, that's not how the real world works.
The fact is, the vast majority of crimes in this country are committed by born and bred true blue fair dinkum throw a shrimp on the barbie Aussies. That has always been the case and always will be the case. The idea that we can make our society significantly safer by systematically removing every law-breaking immigrant is just wishful thinking, and really little more than pandering to our latent xenophobia.
I'm not saying that we should never deport anyone or never exercise discretion about who we let in the gates. But I think deportation should only be considered for very specific crimes. Otherwise, I'm happy for visitors to be treated the same as all other Australians: that is, do the crime, do the time, but it doesn't mean you have to become a persona non grata. I'd rather that a compelling case be made for deportation than "well, that's one less ex-con on our hands".
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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I would rather we spent time trying to help Julian Assange or is he on the scrapheap. Committing a crime is one thing. Planning or executing crimes of random harm to innocents in a secular country over some religious bullshit is another. If they start throwing anthrax or sarin around you going to want to rehabilitate them by singing kumbaya or giving them macrame lessons.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | My issue is that deportation just seems like handballing a problem somewhere else. What purpose does it serve? What point does it prove? That to be Australian requires you to not be a criminal? Unfortunately, that's not how the real world works.
The fact is, the vast majority of crimes in this country are committed by born and bred true blue fair dinkum throw a shrimp on the barbie Aussies. That has always been the case and always will be the case. The idea that we can make our society significantly safer by systematically removing every law-breaking immigrant is just wishful thinking, and really little more than pandering to our latent xenophobia.
I'm not saying that we should never deport anyone or never exercise discretion about who we let in the gates. But I think deportation should only be considered for very specific crimes. Otherwise, I'm happy for visitors to be treated the same as all other Australians: that is, do the crime, do the time, but it doesn't mean you have to become a persona non grata. I'd rather that a compelling case be made for deportation than "well, that's one less ex-con on our hands". |
unless your talking the port Arthur dickhead, or the bikie wars, its not usually bombs blowing a lot of people sky high (that was the suicide bombers first plan, he couldn't get the ingredients) and even those lovely people running around with machetes in the city, chasing innocents into the yarra to drown, were not trying to take out as many as possible, and all in the name of Allah. these are not just criminals, they are terrorists, extremists, as for someone elses problem, send them to the terrorist breeding ground they want to glorify
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| ronrat wrote: | | I would rather we spent time trying to help Julian Assange or is he on the scrapheap. Committing a crime is one thing. Planning or executing crimes of random harm to innocents in a secular country over some religious bullshit is another. If they start throwing anthrax or sarin around you going to want to rehabilitate them by singing kumbaya or giving them macrame lessons. |
yup 100%
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| David wrote: | | The fact is, the vast majority of crimes in this country are committed by born and bred true blue fair dinkum throw a shrimp on the barbie Aussies. That has always been the case and always will be the case. |
I am curious to know how you can state this as fact as it is my understanding that the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research currently doesnt collect information on the ethnic background of offenders - do you have a source for this fact?
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | My issue is that deportation just seems like handballing a problem somewhere else. What purpose does it serve? |
It's not handballing, if the person is not an Australian citizen and they are here and commit crimes, deportation is sending the problem back where it came from.
| Quote: |
What point does it prove? That to be Australian requires you to not be a criminal? Unfortunately, that's not how the real world works. |
The point it proves is we have enough lawbreakers here already. The country was founded as a pommy prison camp, why should we keep other countries crooks as well?
| Quote: | The fact is, the vast majority of crimes in this country are committed by born and bred true blue fair dinkum throw a shrimp on the barbie Aussies. That has always been the case and always will be the case.
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Well, it will remain the case as long as the number of people born here significantly outweigh those born overseas. Other than that, nonsensical argument
| Quote: | | The idea that we can make our society significantly safer by systematically removing every law-breaking immigrant is just wishful thinking, and really little more than pandering to our latent xenophobia. |
I feel dumber for just reading that bit. Gourmet fecal matter served in a solid gold crock as it misses the point by several time zones.
If someone who is the citizen of another country commits crimes here we have no obligation to keep them here. They have the obligation if they want to remain here short of taking out citizenship then they obey our laws. If they can't do that then don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.
| Quote: | | I'm not saying that we should never deport anyone or never exercise discretion about who we let in the gates. But I think deportation should only be considered for very specific crimes. Otherwise, I'm happy for visitors to be treated the same as all other Australians: that is, do the crime, do the time, but it doesn't mean you have to become a persona non grata. I'd rather that a compelling case be made for deportation than "well, that's one less ex-con on our hands". |
Visitors aren't the same. If a visitor to your house misbehaves, you ask them to leave. If a member of your family misbehaves, you manage it differently. What is so hard about that to understand?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Morrigu wrote: | | David wrote: | | The fact is, the vast majority of crimes in this country are committed by born and bred true blue fair dinkum throw a shrimp on the barbie Aussies. That has always been the case and always will be the case. |
I am curious to know how you can state this as fact as it is my understanding that the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research currently doesnt collect information on the ethnic background of offenders - do you have a source for this fact? |
http://www.news.com.au/news/best-intent-cant-fudge-sudanese-somali-crimes/story-fna7dq6e-1111118095627
There's enough information out there to determine that what David says is totally wrong. He's doing the same thing that Christine Nixon tried to do to fool people, that is obfuscate total crime numbers with ratio of crime numbers among different communities. Looking at the ratio of criminals, there are 4 to 8 times as many among Sudanese refugees than 'everyone else' for example. Personally I find it quite hard to tease out that information relating to various other ethnic or racial groups, but because Christine Nixon lied to try and embarrass a Liberal pollie it made the news and reporters actually reported on it for a change. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Please tell me the correct answer. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Wokko wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | | David wrote: | | The fact is, the vast majority of crimes in this country are committed by born and bred true blue fair dinkum throw a shrimp on the barbie Aussies. That has always been the case and always will be the case. |
I am curious to know how you can state this as fact as it is my understanding that the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research currently doesnt collect information on the ethnic background of offenders - do you have a source for this fact? |
http://www.news.com.au/news/best-intent-cant-fudge-sudanese-somali-crimes/story-fna7dq6e-1111118095627
There's enough information out there to determine that what David says is totally wrong. He's doing the same thing that Christine Nixon tried to do to fool people, that is obfuscate total crime numbers with ratio of crime numbers among different communities. Looking at the ratio of criminals, there are 4 to 8 times as many among Sudanese refugees than 'everyone else' for example. Personally I find it quite hard to tease out that information relating to various other ethnic or racial groups, but because Christine Nixon lied to try and embarrass a Liberal pollie it made the news and reporters actually reported on it for a change. |
Yes, lets not attack the messenger but Andrew Bolt puurlease. Next you'll tell us that Leyonhjelem is a non sexist nice guy
As you know crime stats are difficult areas to have absolutes on in many respects. Simplistic rhetoric by attack dog reporters like Bolt do not shed light only heat. However Criminology is much more complex than mere stats.
For example:
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/current%20series/rip/1-10/18.html
From the Australian Institute of Crminology:
Ethnicity and offending
One of the key questions that arises in the context of cultural diversity and crime is whether people from different ethnic groups are more likely or less likely to offend than the general Australian population. Although there are a number of limitations to the data on ethnicity and crime, including those as a result of recording practices by police and corrections agencies on ethnic background of offenders, the available evidence seems to suggest that overall, migrants have the lowest rates of criminality in Australia, followed by first generation Australians, with the remaining Australian-born population having the highest rates of criminality .......
it is misleading to suggest that being a member of one of these groups is causally related to criminal activity. It is necessary to reiterate that the statistics used to identify these groups are inadequate. Furthermore, it is important to recognise that socio-demographic factors and social disadvantage can better explain criminality than membership in the identified groups
.......
Nuff said with respect to putting simple crime stats up. .....
Crime laws reflect the interests of the propertied classes & definitions of crime are mostly arbitrary.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ I totally agree with the variables that need to be taken into account when reviewing data regarding criminality WPT however the past and current methods of data capture, collection and analysis do not allow such sweeping statements as "the fact is" as the AIC themselves state " the available evidence seems to suggest" - that is a long long way short of fact!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Morrigu wrote: | | ^ I totally agree with the variables that need to be taken into account when reviewing data regarding criminality WPT however the past and current methods of data capture, collection and analysis do not allow such sweeping statements as "the fact is" as the AIC themselves state " the available evidence seems to suggest" - that is a long long way short of fact! |
Yes, however, it's much more indicative of whatever it is that Australians are (poor white males basically) are over-represented & of course Aboriginal males. The fact remains that ethnicity is not a good indicator but socio economic factors are heavily influential.
Other factors include the reaction of the police etc (see aboriginals etc)
Lebanese Muslim males may well be over-represented here but they too are largely part of a lower socio-economic milieu...
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | My issue is that deportation just seems like handballing a problem somewhere else. What purpose does it serve? |
It's not handballing, if the person is not an Australian citizen and they are here and commit crimes, deportation is sending the problem back where it came from.
| Quote: |
What point does it prove? That to be Australian requires you to not be a criminal? Unfortunately, that's not how the real world works. |
The point it proves is we have enough lawbreakers here already. The country was founded as a pommy prison camp, why should we keep other countries crooks as well?
| Quote: | The fact is, the vast majority of crimes in this country are committed by born and bred true blue fair dinkum throw a shrimp on the barbie Aussies. That has always been the case and always will be the case.
|
Well, it will remain the case as long as the number of people born here significantly outweigh those born overseas. Other than that, nonsensical argument
| Quote: | | The idea that we can make our society significantly safer by systematically removing every law-breaking immigrant is just wishful thinking, and really little more than pandering to our latent xenophobia. |
I feel dumber for just reading that bit. Gourmet fecal matter served in a solid gold crock as it misses the point by several time zones.
If someone who is the citizen of another country commits crimes here we have no obligation to keep them here. They have the obligation if they want to remain here short of taking out citizenship then they obey our laws. If they can't do that then don't let the door hit you in the arse on the way out.
| Quote: | | I'm not saying that we should never deport anyone or never exercise discretion about who we let in the gates. But I think deportation should only be considered for very specific crimes. Otherwise, I'm happy for visitors to be treated the same as all other Australians: that is, do the crime, do the time, but it doesn't mean you have to become a persona non grata. I'd rather that a compelling case be made for deportation than "well, that's one less ex-con on our hands". |
Visitors aren't the same. If a visitor to your house misbehaves, you ask them to leave. If a member of your family misbehaves, you manage it differently. What is so hard about that to understand? |
To good a post to be lost on the last page!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Morrigu wrote: | | David wrote: | | The fact is, the vast majority of crimes in this country are committed by born and bred true blue fair dinkum throw a shrimp on the barbie Aussies. That has always been the case and always will be the case. |
I am curious to know how you can state this as fact as it is my understanding that the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research currently doesnt collect information on the ethnic background of offenders - do you have a source for this fact? |
http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/tandi_pdf/tandi117.pdf
Scroll down to the top of page 5. This is an old table (1983-1997), but I doubt that things would have changed significantly since; immigrants still only constitute a small percentage of the overall population. I expect you'd see greater numbers coming from places such as Sudan and Afghanistan now, but still probably numbering under 1%.
Percentage of offences committed by country of birth (1997):
Australia: 76.9%
UK/Ireland: 4.0%
New Zealand: 2.8%
Vietnam: 2.4%
Italy: 0.8%
Percentage of violent offences committed by country of birth (1997):
Australia: 79.8%
UK/Ireland: 4.4%
New Zealand: 2.8%
Vietnam: 1.2%
Former Yugoslavia: 0.8%
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | | David wrote: | | The fact is, the vast majority of crimes in this country are committed by born and bred true blue fair dinkum throw a shrimp on the barbie Aussies. That has always been the case and always will be the case. |
I am curious to know how you can state this as fact as it is my understanding that the Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research currently doesnt collect information on the ethnic background of offenders - do you have a source for this fact? |
http://www.aic.gov.au/media_library/publications/tandi_pdf/tandi117.pdf
Scroll down to the top of page 5. This is an old table (1983-1997), but I doubt that things would have changed significantly since; immigrants still only constitute a small percentage of the overall population. I expect you'd see greater numbers coming from places such as Sudan and Afghanistan now, but still probably numbering under 1%.
Percentage of offences committed by country of birth (1997):
Australia: 76.9%
UK/Ireland: 4.0%
New Zealand: 2.8%
Vietnam: 2.4%
Italy: 0.8%
Percentage of violent offences committed by country of birth (1997):
Australia: 79.8%
UK/Ireland: 4.4%
New Zealand: 2.8%
Vietnam: 1.2%
Former Yugoslavia: 0.8% |
Immigrants are a small percentage of the overall population. FFS, do some fact checks can you?
So better than 25% of the current population was born overseas.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/3412.0Chapter12011-12%20and%202012-13
That tends to flatten out the bullshit argument about percentage of criminals by where they were born, doesn't it? 1/4 of the population is a "small" percentage?
Add to that 25%, another 20% has one parent born overseas.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/2071.0main+features902012-2013
And quoting figures from nearly 20 years ago (1997) before all the migration from the muslim countries is just outright cheap crap.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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