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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Wokko wrote: | When you say Nazi soldiers there really needs to be a division made between the Wehrmacht and SS. While there is certainly honor and chivalry in both branches, the majority of blatant war crimes were committed by the SS.
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Is that a fact?
Here's just a few of the war crimes committed by the Wehrmacht.
(the SS is part of the Wehrmacht so there is no division between them).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht
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German Army (The Wehrmacht) gave these orders concerning the mission for all German troops in the East:
...It is necessary to eliminate the red sub-humans, along with their Kremlin dictators. German people will have a great task to perform the most in its history, and the world will hear more about that this task will be completed till the end.
"The partisans are to be ruthlessly eliminated in battle or during attempts to escape", and all attacks by the civilian population against Wehrmacht soldiers are to be "suppressed by the army on the spot by using extreme measures, till [the] annihilation of the attackers;
Every officer in the German occupation in the East of the future will be entitled to perform execution(s) without trial, without any formalities, on any person suspected of having a hostile attitude towards the Germans", (the same applied to prisoners of war);
"If you have not managed to identify and punish the perpetrators of anti-German acts, you are allowed to apply the principle of collective responsibility. 'Collective measures' against residents of the area where the attack occurred can then be applied after approval by the battalion commander or higher level of command";
German soldiers who commit crimes against humanity, the USSR and prisoners of war are to be exempted from criminal responsibility, even if they commit acts punishable according to German law. |
Last edited by 3.14159 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Wokko wrote: | While there is certainly honor and chivalry in both branches
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Name 2 acts of chivalry by the SS and/or the Wehrmacht.
Personally I can only think of one, the refusal of General Dietrich von Choltitz to destroy Paris in the daes before it's capture.
Most/many historians put that down to a strong desire not go down in history as the German that destroyed the "City of Lights"at the Nurenberg War Crimes trials.
Do you know of any others? |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Wokko wrote: |
Historians have pointed out that the Wehrmacht adhered better to the rules of war than the Imperial German Army of 1914-1918
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There was a huge outcry in the Great War about German subs sinking un-armed merchant and passenger ships.
During that war submarines (from all sides) were required to stop and search ships before they could sink them.
The Germans stopped doing this when the British used Q ships to destroy the subs that were acting legally. (Not somethink you can say about the use these weapons (Q ships).
This breaking of the "rules of war' brought the US into the game and sealed Germany's doom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship
Germany used Mustard gas and nerve agents but so did the British and French!
On the other hand the Imperial German army (WW1) never committed crimes on the scale of the Wehrmacht (20 million Jews dead) and pages upon pages of documented War crimes
WAR CRIMES are a very different thing to the Rules of War which ONLY apply in combat situations and treatment official prisoners war).
Crime against civilians and partisan fighters were not covered in the "Rules of War"... (They are now though).
<snip - sigh... please let's keep to the topic and not attack the poster. Thanks, David for BBMods.> |
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Pi 
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | While there is certainly honor and chivalry in both branches
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Name 2 acts of chivalry by the SS and/or the Wehrmacht.
Personally I can only think of one, the refusal of General Dietrich von Choltitz to destroy Paris in the daes before it's capture.
Most/many historians put that down to a strong desire not go down in history as the German that destroyed the "City of Lights"at the Nurenberg War Crimes trials.
Do you know of any others? |
i can think of a few:
1: Anton Schmidt
http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/righteous/stories/schmid.asp
2:Major Karl Plagge
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/apr/11/secondworldwar.germany
_________________
Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | Wokko wrote: |
Historians have pointed out that the Wehrmacht adhered better to the rules of war than the Imperial German Army of 1914-1918
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There was a huge outcry in the Great War about German subs sinking un-armed merchant and passenger ships.
During that war submarines (from all sides) were required to stop and search ships before they could sink them.
The Germans stopped doing this when the British used Q ships to destroy the subs that were acting legally. (Not somethink you can say about the use these weapons (Q ships).
This breaking of the "rules of war' brought the US into the game and sealed Germany's doom.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q-ship
Germany used Mustard gas and nerve agents but so did the British and French!
On the other hand the Imperial German army (WW1) never committed crimes on the scale of the Wehrmacht (20 million Jews dead) and pages upon pages of documented War crimes
WAR CRIMES are a very different thing to the Rules of War which ONLY apply in combat situations and treatment official prisoners war).
Crime against civilians and partisan fighters were not covered in the "Rules of War"... (They are now though).
Wokko is a fine splitter of hairs (and Nazi apologist!) but he will NEVER be a knowlegeable, reliable or even balanced historian. |
You call me unreliable after claiming 20 million Jews died in the Holocaust? Gtfo.
As for your comic book Nazi villains, the entire North Africa campaign of Rommel was fought with honour and bravery. No war crimes, none. An entire campaign.
<snip> |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Neither of those people were in the Wehrmacht so totally irrelevent to the argument (or the thread).
Last edited by 3.14159 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Wokko wrote: | You call me unreliable after claiming 20 million Jews died in the Holocaust? Gtfo.
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I didn't mention the word holocaust but if the word, the figure (and race) offend you, lets just say 20 million Russian, Polish Italian, Checs, Greeks, Italians France English civilians died at the hands of the Wehrmacht and leave it at that shall we?
Last edited by 3.14159 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:27 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| And kind of crucial to Wokko's statement that the Wehrmacht and the SS acted with chivalry andor honour is germany[quote]
Neither of those people were in the German Army which. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Wokko wrote: | As for your comic book Nazi villains, the entire North Africa campaign of Rommel was fought with honour and bravery. No war crimes, none. An entire campaign.
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So you found an example of chivalry and honour by the German Army.
I'd say well done but (there were very few SS in North Africa and not one example of that branch (the SS) of the Army showing chivalry and/or honour ever!
... if you knew anything about the real history of European conflict you could rattle off 1/2 a dozen German Commanders acting above and beyond the sense of "honour" but as i said you don't so you can't.
here's an easy one...
The Laconia incident
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident
Last edited by 3.14159 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 5:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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You, apparently do know a bit more than Wokko and yes you are correct, they were in the Wehrmacht.
The argument Wokko put was the SS should be regarded differently to the Wehrmacht.
| Wokko wrote: | | ...When you say Nazi soldiers there really needs to be a division made between the Wehrmacht and SS. While there is certainly honour and chivalry in both branches, the majority of blatant war crimes were committed by the SS. |
I was wrong about that but these 2 people acted against the SS and German Army (with-out it's knowledge or approval), not for it!
In the examples you cited the Wehrmarcht/SS had Schmitt shot for treason while Pagge had to beat jews to prove to the SS that he wasn't a sympathiser.
Very honourable actions by those men.
The same cannot be said of the SS and the German Army. |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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why the hell was Stuis comment removed?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| think positive wrote: | | why the hell was Stuis comment removed? |
I obviously crossed a force field. It still exists in an alternate universe 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | why the hell was Stuis comment removed? |
I obviously crossed a force field. It still exists in an alternate universe |
Hahahaha if only the snippers were used for good instead of evil, the armpits would be follicle free!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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I'm not proud of myself* but there is no way I'll let some-one tell me the SS were ever chivalrous and Wehrmacht honourable and largely blameless in the deaths of so many innocent people.
Too many died fighting the horrors of National Socialism for that insult to go un challenged.
Not on Remembrance Day.
Last edited by 3.14159 on Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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