List issues exposed
Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 3 Guests
Registered Users: None |
 |
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| derkd wrote: | The more games i am seeing the more i am coming to the conclusion the problem is not personal. I actually think we have a very talented list that may need some tweaks and only has a few "hanger on" players.
The more i am seeing the more i think the coaching staff have badly miscalculated the game plan. Our zone is just a sieve that any half decent team just walks through.... it is good enough to slow ordinary teams. But any half decent side is just cutting us apart. It seems to work on fast hand balling to nearest team mate and moving the ball by hand quickly, but too frequently it is coming unstuck. Our zone seems to sit far too high, West Coast and other teams know that if they kick the ball long out of the back line get it over the back of the zone and into space and they can walk into goal almost.
I get the feeling this is a game plan Bucks has been working on for the last few years and this year it has just been superseded.
Now i am not posting a "sack Bucks" post I am just making a point on the game plan. I will say that if it can't be fixed Bucks may be in strife by seasons end. Any half decent coach needs to have a plan B to slow up teams that get a run on, to lose you can accept...to be blown out of the water consistently by 50+ points is when you start to worry. As of yet we have not got within 5 goals of a top eight team. |
I keep coming back to the midfield. Sunday's game was the perfect case in point with the game ebbing and flowing on who had control of the midfield and clearances. In the 2nd & 3rd when we were on top in the midfield and pressuring their transition our defense looked fine, 1st & 4th when we didn't, well we all saw what happened.
I don't think we're that far off which is actually a good sign given who was unavailable for selection Sunday. |
|
|
|
 |
derkd
Joined: 29 May 2013
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| jackcass wrote: | | derkd wrote: | The more games i am seeing the more i am coming to the conclusion the problem is not personal. I actually think we have a very talented list that may need some tweaks and only has a few "hanger on" players.
The more i am seeing the more i think the coaching staff have badly miscalculated the game plan. Our zone is just a sieve that any half decent team just walks through.... it is good enough to slow ordinary teams. But any half decent side is just cutting us apart. It seems to work on fast hand balling to nearest team mate and moving the ball by hand quickly, but too frequently it is coming unstuck. Our zone seems to sit far too high, West Coast and other teams know that if they kick the ball long out of the back line get it over the back of the zone and into space and they can walk into goal almost.
I get the feeling this is a game plan Bucks has been working on for the last few years and this year it has just been superseded.
Now i am not posting a "sack Bucks" post I am just making a point on the game plan. I will say that if it can't be fixed Bucks may be in strife by seasons end. Any half decent coach needs to have a plan B to slow up teams that get a run on, to lose you can accept...to be blown out of the water consistently by 50+ points is when you start to worry. As of yet we have not got within 5 goals of a top eight team. |
I keep coming back to the midfield. Sunday's game was the perfect case in point with the game ebbing and flowing on who had control of the midfield and clearances. In the 2nd & 3rd when we were on top in the midfield and pressuring their transition our defense looked fine, 1st & 4th when we didn't, well we all saw what happened.
I don't think we're that far off which is actually a good sign given who was unavailable for selection Sunday. |
I really do hope your right, and if you are i tip my hat to you good sir. Only thing i will say is that we have almost our full complement midfield wise, you will never have your best 22 available week in week out. So improvement is going to need to come from those on the park at the moment. Geelong will be the big test. I am sure we have the capacity to beat a Carlton and Brisbane. I guess my point is more finding at least some constancy against the good sides of the competition, a loss to Geelong ok, another 40+ blowout just continues the alarm bells.
_________________
"To know nothing of events before your birth, is to forever remain a child" - Cicero (Roman Lawyer/Senator) 46 BCE. |
|
|
|
|
jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| derkd wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | derkd wrote: | The more games i am seeing the more i am coming to the conclusion the problem is not personal. I actually think we have a very talented list that may need some tweaks and only has a few "hanger on" players.
The more i am seeing the more i think the coaching staff have badly miscalculated the game plan. Our zone is just a sieve that any half decent team just walks through.... it is good enough to slow ordinary teams. But any half decent side is just cutting us apart. It seems to work on fast hand balling to nearest team mate and moving the ball by hand quickly, but too frequently it is coming unstuck. Our zone seems to sit far too high, West Coast and other teams know that if they kick the ball long out of the back line get it over the back of the zone and into space and they can walk into goal almost.
I get the feeling this is a game plan Bucks has been working on for the last few years and this year it has just been superseded.
Now i am not posting a "sack Bucks" post I am just making a point on the game plan. I will say that if it can't be fixed Bucks may be in strife by seasons end. Any half decent coach needs to have a plan B to slow up teams that get a run on, to lose you can accept...to be blown out of the water consistently by 50+ points is when you start to worry. As of yet we have not got within 5 goals of a top eight team. |
I keep coming back to the midfield. Sunday's game was the perfect case in point with the game ebbing and flowing on who had control of the midfield and clearances. In the 2nd & 3rd when we were on top in the midfield and pressuring their transition our defense looked fine, 1st & 4th when we didn't, well we all saw what happened.
I don't think we're that far off which is actually a good sign given who was unavailable for selection Sunday. |
I really do hope your right, and if you are i tip my hat to you good sir. Only thing i will say is that we have almost our full complement midfield wise, you will never have your best 22 available week in week out. So improvement is going to need to come from those on the park at the moment. Geelong will be the big test. I am sure we have the capacity to beat a Carlton and Brisbane. I guess my point is more finding at least some constancy against the good sides of the competition, a loss to Geelong ok, another 40+ blowout just continues the alarm bells. |
I'm not the religious type but I'm thinking of buying a rosary and giving it a damn good work out. |
|
|
|
|
gurugeoff
Joined: 09 Oct 2013
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Ordinary is another way of saying normal, or average. You are neither really good, or really bad. So, based on that, the majority of our list are ordinary [aka average aka normal players of AFL standard].
So, I agree, we are very light on for A grade talent. |
|
|
|
|
Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
|
| Post subject: Re: List issues exposed | |
|
| jackcass wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | 3rd degree wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | Forget about whether Bucks can coach, it's clear to me that we have too many ordinary players. Unfortunately, one of them is Greenwood who was recruited as an in and under specialist, but apart from being a good tackler, has been a disappointment so far.
Really good sides can afford to have 2-3 average/ordinary players, but our problem is that most weeks we've been playing at least 6. These include:
Brown
Frost
Langdon
Sinclair
Greenwood
Howe
Smith
Hopefully Howe will improve and maybe, just maybe Greenwood too. As for Smith, he can obviously get the ball, but I still view him as an ordinary player. We desperately need Varcoe, Adams, Elliott, Williams and (if he gets his head sorted out, and is played as a forward flanker) Cloke back to make us a good side. |
Very harsh on Smith, a bit rude I reckon. 2 games & one in a place where the WC's home average winning margin recently is 60 pts.
Too quick IMO to pass that type of judgment. |
Wow and doesn't he have it in for poor LEVI who I think has been ok and definitely done some good tagging jobs! |
As you say 3rds, Levi has been OK. I'm not saying any of these players are bad, just that they are ordinary/average players. |
In this day and age the further away you get from the 1st round of the draft the further you get from likely elite talent. Yes, you can fluke 1 occasionally like Beams but it is less likely beyond round 1.
Brown, without fully checking, is the only 1st round pick on that list, 2 of them are late picks and 2 are rookie picks. Teams all contain numbers of good ordinary footballers, salary cap and the draft necessitate it.
Don't know that we're any better or worse than other clubs. Well except GWS who currently have 23-24 1st round picks on their list. |
So you agree that Brown is substandard?
Glad to have you on board Jackass!
_________________
"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
© Collingwood Crackerjack, 1992 |
|
|
|
|
jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
|
| Post subject: Re: List issues exposed | |
|
| Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | So you agree that Brown is substandard?
Glad to have you on board Jackass! |
Yeah not quite. Agree he was beaten by Kennedy and been a little below his normal output this season but still the best lock down KPD on our list. |
|
|
|
|
qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
|
| Post subject: Re: List issues exposed | |
|
| RudeBoy wrote: | Forget about whether Bucks can coach, it's clear to me that we have too many ordinary players. Unfortunately, one of them is Greenwood who was recruited as an in and under specialist, but apart from being a good tackler, has been a disappointment so far.
Really good sides can afford to have 2-3 average/ordinary players, but our problem is that most weeks we've been playing at least 6. These include:
Brown
Frost
Langdon
Sinclair
Greenwood
Howe
Smith
Hopefully Howe will improve and maybe, just maybe Greenwood too. As for Smith, he can obviously get the ball, but I still view him as an ordinary player. We desperately need Varcoe, Adams, Elliott, Williams and (if he gets his head sorted out, and is played as a forward flanker) Cloke back to make us a good side. |
Rude I agree some what with a few of your nominees but it think your being a bit harsh on Smith & Howe one only played 2 games and one who is new to the system.
I think greenwood hasn't played to his ability for sure.
The other 3 are fair. And they all play in our back half and are all very poor users of the ball and readers of the game which is a huge problem. When you play Toovey back there as well leaves as very exposed with skill
I would also add there's one other players who whilst very skilful he's performances week in week out are below standard. It's Sidey his best is very good like the first half of the Anzac clash was as good as you could see but last week was well off that level. I've said many times and been abused for calling into question his skill. He has undoubted skill for sure but the gulf between his best game and his other is massive and the best players/elite players don't have that gulf. For this group to succeed he must bridge that gap. Also he's on field leadership is next to non existent. Maybe he's not a leader as such and I'm being hard but for a guy nearly at 150 games you would and should expect more leadership |
|
|
|
|
AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
This really is so wrong. Apart from not all of the players on this list being ordinary (Brown, Sinclair and Greenwood at least), every club has at least 6-7 average/ordinary players on their list and these players get average/ordinary salaries compared to the stars. And you must be talking about our list not just our team as Smith would clearly not be in our best 22 if not for injuries. Add up how many average/ordinary players we had in 2010 (you'd probably still wrongly include Brown then as well and Presti too I guess).
Your dissatisfaction with Greenwood is a little difficult to understand. He's averaging 20 touches, winning the tough ball and tackling at a high rate (6.5 per game). It's the third time in his career that his average disposals have been over 20 and this is pretty much the Greenwood I expected to see. Potentially he could improve a little as he spends more time with the group, but he's never really been a complete ball winning machine. 20 touches while often being given a limiting role on an opposition player is perfectly fine.
And you forgot to include Blair  (also on our 2010 list of course).
_________________
Well done boys! |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^
No club, not even hawthorn, has 22 stars.
Every club has role players, every player has limitations. If you have good top level talent, the role players tend to start at about 15 or 16 on your list. If you have good depth, the bottom 6 and the next 6-10 are largely interchangeable.
We've already played something like 32-33 players this year so we're seriously tapping into our depth.
Our best 22 (on the day) is able to compete with any clubs best 22 as does our game plan IF we have the cattle on deck to follow it.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
inxs88
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Raw Hammer wrote: | | Did anyone notice how lax Langdon ran to the errant kick by Cox just prior to him getting injured? If ever there was a moment to show some urgency, this was it...and he merely sauntered towards the pill before getting tangled in a tackle. I'm like, "Move, kid! Jesus!" I honestly think he takes Valium before each game. |
Plus a borocca, red bull, no doz and a V drink
_________________
I love the Pies, hate Carlscum |
|
|
|
|
inxs88
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
|
| Post subject: Re: List issues exposed | |
|
| jackcass wrote: | | Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | So you agree that Brown is substandard?
Glad to have you on board Jackass! |
Yeah not quite. Agree he was beaten by Kennedy and been a little below his normal output this season but still the best lock down KPD on our list. |
Any player on our list you don't subscribe to??
_________________
I love the Pies, hate Carlscum |
|
|
|
|
John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
rudie is consistent with his pattern of commentary. as the weekend nears he will be on an upward trajectory and claiming we are world beaters. 
_________________
Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
|
|
|
|
jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
|
| Post subject: Re: List issues exposed | |
|
| inxs88 wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | So you agree that Brown is substandard?
Glad to have you on board Jackass! |
Yeah not quite. Agree he was beaten by Kennedy and been a little below his normal output this season but still the best lock down KPD on our list. |
Any player on our list you don't subscribe to?? |
Been quite a few over the years that I haven't supported recruiting. Treloar, Howe, Aish and Golds this year for example. I'll always opt for the draft over trades. But they're at the club and they have my full support. I hope to see what the attraction was. Don't see any benefit in running any player down on a footy forum. Achieves nothing and says more about the poster than the player.
Are you telling me that Brown isn't the best lock down KPD at the club at this time? |
|
|
|
|
Born to Pie
Born to Pie
Joined: 20 Sep 2011
Location: Tolga FNQ
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Injuries have already taken a toll on our list and we need to consider that we have only NINE (9) players that have taken the field for six games.
The top eight looks like this for players that have already played six games:
Kangas 19
Cats 12
Sydney 14
Dogs 15
GWS 13
WCE 16
Crows 18
Hawks 14
Sure form and suspension have been part of the problem, but we didn't start the year expecting the following players to play so few games already:
Marley Williams 3
Jackson Ramsay 2 (Season)
Travis Varcoe 2
Dane Swan 1 (Season?)
Tim Broomhead 1
Jamie Elliott 0 (Season?)
Matthew Scharenberg 0 (Season)
_________________
In the end, it's not going to matter how many breaths you took, but how many moments took your breath away |
|
|
|
|
CarringbushCigar 
Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Location: wherever I lay my beanie
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Born to Pie wrote: | Injuries have already taken a toll on our list and we need to consider that we have only NINE (9) players that have taken the field for six games.
The top eight looks like this for players that have already played six games:
Kangas 19
Cats 12
Sydney 14
Dogs 15
GWS 13
WCE 16
Crows 18
Hawks 14
Sure form and suspension have been part of the problem, but we didn't start the year expecting the following players to play so few games already:
Marley Williams 3
Jackson Ramsay 2 (Season)
Travis Varcoe 2
Dane Swan 1 (Season?)
Tim Broomhead 1
Jamie Elliott 0 (Season?)
Matthew Scharenberg 0 (Season) |
Reid was mysteriously rested Round 1, Oxley and Maynard have been dropped to retain Sinclair, Grundy and Cox and Cloke have all been available.
To me that puts us at least on par with Geelong as to players who could have/possibly should have played all 6 games. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
