Sack Buckley
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| No. Redlight is quite correct. The Alan Richardson thread started last Monday night, for example, has been strangely quiet since his team failed to touch the ball for the first 20 minutes of yesterday's game against the Wiggles. |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Yep, fickle is the word that comes to mind. |
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King Malta
RIP Flip
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Location: Gettin' Wiggy
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People who are familiar with my posting on this forum will know that I typically lean towards glass half-full rather than half-empty, but even I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed with where we're at currently.
Injuries obviously effect everything in sport, but my biggest concern is that we just look so lost out there at times. Teams like Carlton, St Kilda and Melbourne have, in my opinion, a weaker list than even an injury riddled Collingwood best 22 yet they all play a more structured, effective brand of football than us. I suspect that there's some kind of breakdown between what Buckley wants they players to do and what they're capable of doing or understand. Is it because what we what to do doesn't work? Is it because Buckley can't communicate it effectively, I'm not sure, but I definitely think there's an issue here.
That all being said, some of the personal abuse I see leveled at Buckley on here is incredibly distasteful and something I'd never support at all. As an Arsenal fan I've seen similar things happen within that fan-base, with anyone who says any negativity or displeasure being lumped in one group and the opposite lumped in another. It's all a bit silly to me, having an intransigent opinion and locking yourself or others into a group based on that get's nobody anywhere. |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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the canterbury bulldogs were 5-4 going into the round 10 game and there is supposed behind the scenes move to remove the coach des hasler because of the inconsistent performances. the doggies won yesterday 34-4. it's a fickle game coaching.
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | No. Redlight is quite correct. The Alan Richardson thread started last Monday night, for example, has been strangely quiet since his team failed to touch the ball for the first 20 minutes of yesterday's game against the Wiggles. |
"Oh yes, the saints got smashed by 100 points plus, clearly Richos five yr plan is now in tatters, he has lost the players, no gameplan, going nowhere, how has he improve the Saints, blah blah blah " Flogs in the media etc sadsackers saints fans. All biting sarcasm and all as relevant to Richo as this moronic thread has become on Bucks. 
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| King Malta wrote: | People who are familiar with my posting on this forum will know that I typically lean towards glass half-full rather than half-empty, but even I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed with where we're at currently.
Injuries obviously effect everything in sport, but my biggest concern is that we just look so lost out there at times. Teams like Carlton, St Kilda and Melbourne have, in my opinion, a weaker list than even an injury riddled Collingwood best 22 yet they all play a more structured, effective brand of football than us. I suspect that there's some kind of breakdown between what Buckley wants they players to do and what they're capable of doing or understand. Is it because what we what to do doesn't work? Is it because Buckley can't communicate it effectively, I'm not sure, but I definitely think there's an issue here.
That all being said, some of the personal abuse I see leveled at Buckley on here is incredibly distasteful and something I'd never support at all. As an Arsenal fan I've seen similar things happen within that fan-base, with anyone who says any negativity or displeasure being lumped in one group and the opposite lumped in another. It's all a bit silly to me, having an intransigent opinion and locking yourself or others into a group based on that get's nobody anywhere. |
On the weekend:
Carlton av age - 26y 2m; av games - 103; <50 games - 6; <100 games - 5
St Kilda 24-10; 91.6; 10; 5
WB 24-7; 78; 10; 7
Melb 24-7; 64; 11; 6
Collingwood 24-2; 75; 9; 6
That's without even factoring in the relative injury lists of each club or relative access to high end draft picks. We will see the benefits of getting games into so many kids. Just takes time. |
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The Prototype
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| jackcass wrote: | | Just takes time. |
Patience doesn't seem to be something that some supporters in any sport seem to be able to do. It always seems there's an expectation that players and teams will start to be great in a short matter of time, and then if they're not people want this guy sacked, that guy sacked, etc.
I think the future is bright at Collingwood, whether or not that's under Buckley I am not too sure. Perhaps Bucks will be a better assistant than a head coach, maybe he will become a very good coach. It's hard to really say but I am willing to give him time.
We do need to get some experience onto the park, and get the team jelling together. Hopefully they can build on the win against the Lions start to be more confident in themselves and we can have a good run towards the end of the season.
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | Congrats on smashing a bottom 4 side... Good lord have our expectations dwindled since 2011. Like I've said before, we can run and gun with the best of them. Kind of like Carlton when Ratten was coach. But there is still no real defensive accountability.
Was at gws game tonight. The amount of talk and direction gws players give each other at stoppages, kick ins and around the ground to maintain the structure is exceptional. Reflection of quality coaching. We used to be like that.
At the 3/4 time siren stevie j didnt see steele in fwd pocket and didnt dish off. Steele gave Stevie a spray for not seeing him. Mind you GWS were 10 goals up at that stage, yet a second/third year player in Steele is giving it to a legend (and assistant coach) like stevie johnson... that just shows what a great culture gws have built. They just want to destroy teams.
Team culture is what a coach develops. Sadly we don't have that type of culture anymore |
Maybe you should switch allegiance to the Giants, as you seem to get more joy from watching them. The Giants should be f*cking good, as just about every single player on their list is a top 5 draft pick!
As for us having no defensive pressure? We pressured fantastically last night until some players began to run out of legs. Remember, when you're criticising our backline, we are missing Reid, Brown, Ramsay, Williams and Langdon. FFS mate, injuries forced us to play Tooves as our CHB and we still smashed the Bears. |
Where did I say anything about defensive pressure or about our back 6? I was referring to "team structure" thats fwds, mids and def. If you've seen my previous posts you'd see i've been critical of team structure, particularly at stoppages and kick ins because the structure has been a key reason why our back 6 have been under the pump (regardless of who they are). I don't blame our backline for leaking goals when the structure and positioning of players up field is so poor.
Ok then, lets compare it to the Gold Coast Suns then. All the draft picks in the world. Talent on every line. But can Eade and McKenna develop a culture that gets the best outta the playing group? Nope. Are injuries solely to blame? Nope. Do the Suns lack on feild direction? Yep. Do they communicate well to each other on the feild? Nope. These are key indications that the coaches can't get them on the same page. It also reiterates that the team lacks on field leadership. Sounds a bit familiar to me.
I'll give you another star studded side that under performed. West Coast under Ron Alexander and John Todd. But when west coast got a good coach they made finals for ten years straight (regardless of injuries) and got two flags (should have been more but as we all know they aren't easy to win, but you certainly cant win them if you keep finishing 12th and not playing finals).
Do not underestimate the great coaching and leadership effort GWS have done to get them to gel. I mean the players could have gotten jealous about the coin Scully is on and be like the Bears with Capper and refuse to kick it to him. Or they could also have allowed a drug issue to become divisive and split the playing group. Or they could have got leading teams in and had the playing group tell jeremy cameron that he's been coasting since getting his big deal like we decided to do with Cloke.
You can't deny the culture leon cameron and their admin has built at GWS. On face value it appears inclusive, family oriented and has helped enhance talented individual players become an elite team. The hiring of Nick Maxwell to help mold the leadership group has also paid dividends too.
Our list may not be as "talented" as GWS but up until the wheels fell off this year it was considered by a lot of experts that our list was top 8 and on the way to top 4.
Did injuries help this year? Nope. But does that justify the coach admitting by round 3 that the "defensive structures have collapsed"? Nope.
Do injuries justify the Carlton loss, the failure to not go man on man to get the win, and the President publicly criticise the gameplan? Nope.
Of course Im happy we beat the lions. I'm happy for the players and the club. I hope the win sparks a remarkable turnaround in form and the gameplan is able to be implemented for 4 qtrs vs Top 8 sides. Cause if we don't turn it around, we're in for another underperforming season.
Based on the remainder of the draw, and current form within the league, I see 6 winnable games out of the last 14 games. So were looking down the barrel of a potential 9 win season. If that does eventuate, to me thats unexceptable. Being 3-5 is unexceptable considering the quality of three of the teams we've lost to. Take the tigers lucky win away and we're 2-6.
But yeah, every time we belt a bottom 4 side feel free to jump on this thread and sprout Buckley's genius.
Last edited by Krakouer Magic on Mon May 16, 2016 3:35 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| jackcass wrote: | | King Malta wrote: | People who are familiar with my posting on this forum will know that I typically lean towards glass half-full rather than half-empty, but even I have to say that I'm pretty disappointed with where we're at currently.
Injuries obviously effect everything in sport, but my biggest concern is that we just look so lost out there at times. Teams like Carlton, St Kilda and Melbourne have, in my opinion, a weaker list than even an injury riddled Collingwood best 22 yet they all play a more structured, effective brand of football than us. I suspect that there's some kind of breakdown between what Buckley wants they players to do and what they're capable of doing or understand. Is it because what we what to do doesn't work? Is it because Buckley can't communicate it effectively, I'm not sure, but I definitely think there's an issue here.
That all being said, some of the personal abuse I see leveled at Buckley on here is incredibly distasteful and something I'd never support at all. As an Arsenal fan I've seen similar things happen within that fan-base, with anyone who says any negativity or displeasure being lumped in one group and the opposite lumped in another. It's all a bit silly to me, having an intransigent opinion and locking yourself or others into a group based on that get's nobody anywhere. |
On the weekend:
Carlton av age - 26y 2m; av games - 103; <50 games - 6; <100 games - 5
St Kilda 24-10; 91.6; 10; 5
WB 24-7; 78; 10; 7
Melb 24-7; 64; 11; 6
Collingwood 24-2; 75; 9; 6
That's without even factoring in the relative injury lists of each club or relative access to high end draft picks. We will see the benefits of getting games into so many kids. Just takes time. |
Premiership side of 2010 had an average age of 24. Age of players is a factor for inconsistent performance to some regard. But it can't necessarily be relied on as a great guide for predicting when the team will come good.
At Collingwood I see the basics of footy not being adhered to. For example, in the Carlton game I think in the 4th quarter Grundy was standing on the mark 45 out from goals. Now I get that Grundy is young, but not one of our leaders yelled out to Grundy to run back to the goal square and get on a tall. The Carlton player kicks it, ball drops short and Levi Casboult takes an uncontested over head mark. Grundy should have been reminded to get back to the goal line. Its what every ruck man (in every level of the game from under 12's up) is expected to do in that situation. If a player forgets he's role, then other players have to speak up and direct him.
In comparison the very next day, StK vs NMFC. There was a free against Hickey for blocking in the ruck. About 55 out late in the 4th qtr. As soon as he stood on the mark a StK player yelled out to him and Hickey turned sprinted for the goal square. Hickey forgot his role, but a stk player reminded Hickey that the expectation is for the ruck to get on the goal line. That's a demonstration of good leadership. And on field leadership in my view is a direct reflection of the coaching staff. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | Premiership side of 2010 had an average age of 24. Age of players is a factor for inconsistent performance to some regard. But it can't necessarily be relied on as a great guide for predicting when the team will come good.
At Collingwood I see the basics of footy not being adhered to. For example, in the Carlton game I think in the 4th quarter Grundy was standing on the mark 45 out from goals. Now I get that Grundy is young, but not one of our leaders yelled out to Grundy to run back to the goal square and get on a tall. The Carlton player kicks it, ball drops short and Levi Casboult takes an uncontested over head mark. Grundy should have been reminded to get back to the goal line. Its what every ruck man (in every level of the game from under 12's up) is expected to do in that situation. If a player forgets he's role, then other players have to speak up and direct him.
In comparison the very next day, StK vs NMFC. There was a free against Hickey for blocking in the ruck. About 55 out late in the 4th qtr. As soon as he stood on the mark a StK player yelled out to him and Hickey turned sprinted for the goal square. Hickey forgot his role, but a stk player reminded Hickey that the expectation is for the ruck to get on the goal line. That's a demonstration of good leadership. And on field leadership in my view is a direct reflection of the coaching staff. |
Totally different discussion so I'm not sure why you've attached that to my post.
Agree, we are lacking on-field leadership, have said as much in other threads. That on-field direction doesn't come naturally to Pendles and for whatever reason we have lost most of the players from within the team who were good at it like Maxwell, Shaw, Ball, Jolly etc. It's fairly obvious to anyone and it's not like it's a bolt from the blue.
But I'm not sure how you can level a (current) lack of on-field leadership at the coaching staff. Players either have it or they don't and we've recruited players who do in Adams (didn't play against Carlton), and Varcoe (didn't play against Carlton), and De Goey, and Moore, and Marsh (didn't play against Carlton), and Scharenberg (didn't play against Carlton), and Williams (didn't play against Carlton)... I think you're just being unrealistic expecting guys either new to the club or new to senior footy to fill the void left by departed aging warriors. Just need some patience. |
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Mossi
Joined: 20 May 2002
Location: Vittorio Veneto TV Italy
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| ^ "onfield leadership", a lot of people don't realise Varcoe's contribution. He is a natural leader out on the footy field. Next game be on the lookout for his directing. |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| jackcass wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | Premiership side of 2010 had an average age of 24. Age of players is a factor for inconsistent performance to some regard. But it can't necessarily be relied on as a great guide for predicting when the team will come good.
At Collingwood I see the basics of footy not being adhered to. For example, in the Carlton game I think in the 4th quarter Grundy was standing on the mark 45 out from goals. Now I get that Grundy is young, but not one of our leaders yelled out to Grundy to run back to the goal square and get on a tall. The Carlton player kicks it, ball drops short and Levi Casboult takes an uncontested over head mark. Grundy should have been reminded to get back to the goal line. Its what every ruck man (in every level of the game from under 12's up) is expected to do in that situation. If a player forgets he's role, then other players have to speak up and direct him.
In comparison the very next day, StK vs NMFC. There was a free against Hickey for blocking in the ruck. About 55 out late in the 4th qtr. As soon as he stood on the mark a StK player yelled out to him and Hickey turned sprinted for the goal square. Hickey forgot his role, but a stk player reminded Hickey that the expectation is for the ruck to get on the goal line. That's a demonstration of good leadership. And on field leadership in my view is a direct reflection of the coaching staff. |
Totally different discussion so I'm not sure why you've attached that to my post.
Agree, we are lacking on-field leadership, have said as much in other threads. That on-field direction doesn't come naturally to Pendles and for whatever reason we have lost most of the players from within the team who were good at it like Maxwell, Shaw, Ball, Jolly etc. It's fairly obvious to anyone and it's not like it's a bolt from the blue.
But I'm not sure how you can level a (current) lack of on-field leadership at the coaching staff. Players either have it or they don't and we've recruited players who do in Adams (didn't play against Carlton), and Varcoe (didn't play against Carlton), and De Goey, and Moore, and Marsh (didn't play against Carlton), and Scharenberg (didn't play against Carlton), and Williams (didn't play against Carlton)... I think you're just being unrealistic expecting guys either new to the club or new to senior footy to fill the void left by departed aging warriors. Just need some patience. |
What I was getting at is that age is not really that relevant. Its easy just to say "they're young, give em time". We have really been in rebuild mode since the end of 2010. Under the current coaching staff I don't see great gains in results in the near to long term future.
I was pointing out that if our coaching staff can't even drill it into our players something so simple like the ruck must always go to the goal square to help defend the line (is this grundy's 3rd or 4th year now?) then i've little faith in them being able to get the players to do execute much else of the gameplan on a consistent basis.
And we'll have to agree to disagree on a coaches role to develop leadership and communication qualities in all players.
Last edited by Krakouer Magic on Mon May 16, 2016 5:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Mossi wrote: | | ^ "onfield leadership", a lot of people don't realise Varcoe's contribution. He is a natural leader out on the footy field. Next game be on the lookout for his directing. |
Exactly. And he didn't play in the example given of the Carlton game. There was quite a bit of discussion leading up to that game about the fact that losing Varcoe and Adams would diminish our on-field leadership. If you look you can find examples in every game of every team having the same issues. Just gets magnified as teams get younger as they aren't as experienced at maintaining structures. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | Premiership side of 2010 had an average age of 24. Age of players is a factor for inconsistent performance to some regard. But it can't necessarily be relied on as a great guide for predicting when the team will come good.
At Collingwood I see the basics of footy not being adhered to. For example, in the Carlton game I think in the 4th quarter Grundy was standing on the mark 45 out from goals. Now I get that Grundy is young, but not one of our leaders yelled out to Grundy to run back to the goal square and get on a tall. The Carlton player kicks it, ball drops short and Levi Casboult takes an uncontested over head mark. Grundy should have been reminded to get back to the goal line. Its what every ruck man (in every level of the game from under 12's up) is expected to do in that situation. If a player forgets he's role, then other players have to speak up and direct him.
In comparison the very next day, StK vs NMFC. There was a free against Hickey for blocking in the ruck. About 55 out late in the 4th qtr. As soon as he stood on the mark a StK player yelled out to him and Hickey turned sprinted for the goal square. Hickey forgot his role, but a stk player reminded Hickey that the expectation is for the ruck to get on the goal line. That's a demonstration of good leadership. And on field leadership in my view is a direct reflection of the coaching staff. |
Totally different discussion so I'm not sure why you've attached that to my post.
Agree, we are lacking on-field leadership, have said as much in other threads. That on-field direction doesn't come naturally to Pendles and for whatever reason we have lost most of the players from within the team who were good at it like Maxwell, Shaw, Ball, Jolly etc. It's fairly obvious to anyone and it's not like it's a bolt from the blue.
But I'm not sure how you can level a (current) lack of on-field leadership at the coaching staff. Players either have it or they don't and we've recruited players who do in Adams (didn't play against Carlton), and Varcoe (didn't play against Carlton), and De Goey, and Moore, and Marsh (didn't play against Carlton), and Scharenberg (didn't play against Carlton), and Williams (didn't play against Carlton)... I think you're just being unrealistic expecting guys either new to the club or new to senior footy to fill the void left by departed aging warriors. Just need some patience. |
What I was getting at is that age is not really that relevant. Its easy just to say "they're young, give em time". We have really been in rebuild mode since the end of 2010. Under the current coaching staff I don't see great gains in results in the near to long term future.
I was pointing out that if our coaching staff can't even drill it into our players something so simple like the ruck must always go to the goal square to help defend the line (is this grundy's 3rd or 4th year now?) then i've little faith in them being able to get the players to do execute much else of the gameplan on a consistent basis.
And we'll have to agree to disagree on a coaches roll to develop leadership and communication qualities in all players. |
But even experienced senior players don't get it right all the time and you'd have to expect it to impact more as those 2 elements diminish so age and inexperience is are factors that can't just be dismissed. |
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Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
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| jackcass wrote: | | Mossi wrote: | | ^ "onfield leadership", a lot of people don't realise Varcoe's contribution. He is a natural leader out on the footy field. Next game be on the lookout for his directing. |
Exactly. And he didn't play in the example given of the Carlton game. There was quite a bit of discussion leading up to that game about the fact that losing Varcoe and Adams would diminish our on-field leadership. If you look you can find examples in every game of every team having the same issues. Just gets magnified as teams get younger as they aren't as experienced at maintaining structures. |
Actually, I'm not sure if Varcs is a natural leader to be frank, I see it more as 7-8 years in the Geelong system showing itself....there have been many articles about the cats culture insisting every player feel empowered enough to call out whoever on the field, and you could and can see it when they play, especially back in the 2007-2010 years, when Varcs came up.
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"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
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