Sack Buckley
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Mossi wrote: | | ^ "onfield leadership", a lot of people don't realise Varcoe's contribution. He is a natural leader out on the footy field. Next game be on the lookout for his directing. |
Exactly. And he didn't play in the example given of the Carlton game. There was quite a bit of discussion leading up to that game about the fact that losing Varcoe and Adams would diminish our on-field leadership. If you look you can find examples in every game of every team having the same issues. Just gets magnified as teams get younger as they aren't as experienced at maintaining structures. |
Actually, I'm not sure if Varcs is a natural leader to be frank, I see it more as 7-8 years in the Geelong system showing itself....there have been many articles about the cats culture insisting every player feel empowered enough to call out whoever on the field, and you could and can see it when they play, especially back in the 2007-2010 years, when Varcs came up. |
Can only comment on what I've seen at the Pies. |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| Tony Shaw is on the money when he stated, Injuries are saving Buckley. |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| Culprit wrote: | | Tony Shaw is on the money when he stated, Injuries are saving Buckley. |
A little more to it than just that but its making it much easier for them to sell. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Culprit wrote: | | Tony Shaw is on the money when he stated, Injuries are saving Buckley. |
That assumes that our performances would be the same if we had a full healthy list to chose from, I doubt that would be the case. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| ^^^ It also assumes that Tony Shaw is in a position to comment on the competency of anyone's coaching, a proposition that some may tend to doubt. |
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duke750
Joined: 11 Nov 2005
Location: Buderim QLD
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Tony Shaw will be forever remembered as a Collngwood Premiership captain and Norm Smith medallist, certainly not as a media expert. And certainly not as a coach.
_________________
Magpies forever.
First Colligwood game: Western Oval 1960 |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| jackcass wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | Tony Shaw is on the money when he stated, Injuries are saving Buckley. |
That assumes that our performances would be the same if we had a full healthy list to chose from, I doubt that would be the case. |
If we had had a full healthy list to choose from, excluding our long term injuries (Swan, Elliot & Scharenberg), it's not unreasonable to think that we might have won against Carlton, Melbourne and St Kilda. So let's say that we would have won against St Kilda and the Melbourne and Carlton games are 50:50's, then we would be going into the Geelong game standing at five and three. That's a lot different to our current predicament of three and five and the level of pressure on the coach wouldn't be as bad. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | Tony Shaw is on the money when he stated, Injuries are saving Buckley. |
That assumes that our performances would be the same if we had a full healthy list to chose from, I doubt that would be the case. |
If we had had a full healthy list to choose from, excluding our long term injuries (Swan, Elliot & Scharenberg), it's not unreasonable to think that we might have won against Carlton, Melbourne and St Kilda. So let's say that we would have won against St Kilda and the Melbourne and Carlton games are 50:50's, then we would be going into the Geelong game standing at five and three. That's a lot different to our current predicament of three and five and the level of pressure on the coach wouldn't be as bad. |
Absolutely correct but we got some posters here who see these hard facts as merely making soft excuses. So one cannot ever win this debate with perfect reasoning, rationale and logic because for that brilliance to work, you need the other side to reasonable, rational and logical.  
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Don't confuse your current path with your final destination. Just because it's dark and stormy now doesn't meant that you aren't headed for glorious sunshine! |
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Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
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| Lazza wrote: | | BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | Tony Shaw is on the money when he stated, Injuries are saving Buckley. |
That assumes that our performances would be the same if we had a full healthy list to chose from, I doubt that would be the case. |
If we had had a full healthy list to choose from, excluding our long term injuries (Swan, Elliot & Scharenberg), it's not unreasonable to think that we might have won against Carlton, Melbourne and St Kilda. So let's say that we would have won against St Kilda and the Melbourne and Carlton games are 50:50's, then we would be going into the Geelong game standing at five and three. That's a lot different to our current predicament of three and five and the level of pressure on the coach wouldn't be as bad. |
Absolutely correct but we got some posters here who see these hard facts as merely making soft excuses. So one cannot ever win this debate with perfect reasoning, rationale and logic because for that brilliance to work, you need the other side to reasonable, rational and logical. |
That cause they aren't facts Lazza; the post reads 'if we had a full list....', and as such is the textbook definition of speculation.....just sayin'.....
_________________
"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
© Collingwood Crackerjack, 1992 |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^^^ It also assumes that Tony Shaw is in a position to comment on the competency of anyone's coaching, a proposition that some may tend to doubt. |
Perhaps its takes one (an ex captain, norm smith medalist with a poor coaching record) to know one. I don't know what Tony said, but he is in a much better position to make informed comment on Collingwood issues than most, and certainly anyone on this forum. |
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The Prototype 
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | | Perhaps its takes one (an ex captain, norm smith medalist with a poor coaching record) to know one. I don't know what Tony said, but he is in a much better position to make informed comment on Collingwood issues than most, and certainly anyone on this forum. |
I don't think he knows any more than the rest of us about Buckley's coaching abilities, we don't know what Buckley does behind the scenes. We don't know any of the issues at the club, nor does Tony or anyone else outside of the club.
Tony, like all of us is using his own mind to form an opinion, whether or not Buckley is a good or bad coach is for the club to ultimately decide maybe even Buckley himself.
I am sure Tony is in the best position to be able to tell of the struggles to coach a big club with so many expecting big things, and the media pressure of being an AFL coach. The rest is just people's opinions no opinion is more right or wrong than the other.
Nothing against anyone, Shaw included, I think that none of us know what he, buckley or any other coach does behind those doors and how the players are responding. We're all just using our opinions to believe the coach or something else is the problem.
Just there are some that believe they're always right and they're the ones whose opinion we should sit and listen to because they sprout the same thing every day. In the end we don't know anything of what the targets are for Buckley at the club, and how they feel he's going.
We're all just speculating, but there are two sides of the coin that have begun to war with each other here and elsewhere one side wants Buckley gone, the other thinks he is fine and will remain. I think both need to agree to disagree and stop the childish nicknames, and the abuse and name calling.
It's getting sad.
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| duke750 wrote: | | Tony Shaw will be forever remembered as a Collngwood Premiership captain and Norm Smith medallist, certainly not as a media expert. And certainly not as a coach. |
Well you could say Buckley will forever be remembered as Collingwood captain and Norm Smith medallist, certainly a media expert. And certainly not as a coach.
Lets look at Tony Shaw's coaching record. 1996 and 1997 improved the win loss record and bettered Matthews 1995. Wheels fell off in 98 and 99. List got worse and worse. Young players from good drafts came in but Eddie brought Malthouse in to mould a new era.
Bucks has never bettered the previous coaches record in any season. I say for 2012 and 13 it was still the old coaches team. So I would suggest Buck's coaching era really started in 2014. Young players came in from good drafts but he is yet to maximise their potential...
Shaw
1996 - 9 W 13 L
1997 - 10 W 12 L
1998 - 7 W 15 L
Bucks
2014 - 11 W 11 L
2015 - 10 W 12 L
2016 - 3 W 5 L (with 6 winnable games left for the year)
I see a pattern forming |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| The Prototype wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | | Perhaps its takes one (an ex captain, norm smith medalist with a poor coaching record) to know one. I don't know what Tony said, but he is in a much better position to make informed comment on Collingwood issues than most, and certainly anyone on this forum. |
I don't think he knows any more than the rest of us about Buckley's coaching abilities, we don't know what Buckley does behind the scenes. We don't know any of the issues at the club, nor does Tony or anyone else outside of the club.
Tony, like all of us is using his own mind to form an opinion, whether or not Buckley is a good or bad coach is for the club to ultimately decide maybe even Buckley himself.
I am sure Tony is in the best position to be able to tell of the struggles to coach a big club with so many expecting big things, and the media pressure of being an AFL coach. The rest is just people's opinions no opinion is more right or wrong than the other.
Nothing against anyone, Shaw included, I think that none of us know what he, buckley or any other coach does behind those doors and how the players are responding. We're all just using our opinions to believe the coach or something else is the problem.
Just there are some that believe they're always right and they're the ones whose opinion we should sit and listen to because they sprout the same thing every day. In the end we don't know anything of what the targets are for Buckley at the club, and how they feel he's going.
We're all just speculating, but there are two sides of the coin that have begun to war with each other here and elsewhere one side wants Buckley gone, the other thinks he is fine and will remain. I think both need to agree to disagree and stop the childish nicknames, and the abuse and name calling.
It's getting sad. |
So Tony would have no inside word on the club at all? So its ok for posters to take pots shots at a premiership captain in Tony Shaw and no one is allowed to defend him? |
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themonk
Joined: 02 Mar 2004
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | | duke750 wrote: | | Tony Shaw will be forever remembered as a Collngwood Premiership captain and Norm Smith medallist, certainly not as a media expert. And certainly not as a coach. |
Well you could say Buckley will forever be remembered as Collingwood captain and Norm Smith medallist, certainly a media expert. And certainly not as a coach.
Lets look at Tony Shaw's coaching record. 1996 and 1997 improved the win loss record and bettered Matthews 1995. Wheels fell off in 98 and 99. List got worse and worse. Young players from good drafts came in but Eddie brought Malthouse in to mould a new era.
Bucks has never bettered the previous coaches record in any season. I say for 2012 and 13 it was still the old coaches team. So I would suggest Buck's coaching era really started in 2014. Young players came in from good drafts but he is yet to maximise their potential...
Shaw
1996 - 9 W 13 L
1997 - 10 W 12 L
1998 - 7 W 15 L
Bucks
2014 - 11 W 11 L
2015 - 10 W 12 L
2016 - 3 W 5 L (with 6 winnable games left for the year)
I see a pattern forming |
Young players? 3 1st round picks have hardly taken the field, Scharenberg, Freeman & Broomhead. |
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The Prototype
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | | So Tony would have no inside word on the club at all? So its ok for posters to take pots shots at a premiership captain in Tony Shaw and no one is allowed to defend him? |
Where did I imply that it was okay to take pot shots at anyone, let alone him? Where also did I say no one was allowed to defend him? Or have I said he wasn't allowed an opinion?
I don't have any more idea on his connections to the inside workings to Collingwood then anyone else, he's entitled to an opinion he expressed it, I was stating that like him everyone can have an opinion but none are more right or wrong than the other it's just opinion.
The only people I've even come close to taking a pot shot at are those that have labeled both sides of the "Buckley"/"Anti-Buckley" debate.
I am sure Tony ha a lot of connections at the club, what they tell him or what he knows no one but he and they know. But again he's spoken his opinion he's entitled to it. It would be nice if people debated it without the pot shots, but that seems the norm.
People see an opinion they hate it so they attack the person, seems the norm which is pretty sad really. I guess we're all guilty of that in a way.
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https://www.facebook.com/davehardingphotography
https://www.facebook.com/Davage |
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