Death Penalty?
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| Death Penalty |
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| Total Votes : 31 |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| ronrat wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | I hear and read that the executions won't mean anything. Barlow and Chambers were executed and the message was loud and clear about Bangkok. The same message will be loud and clear about Indonesia. You import large quantities of drugs into Indonesia and you get caught you will be facing the death penalty.
This is their Law, not ours. The only person I feel for out of the whole episode is Scott Rush's Father who dobbed them in to the AFP and in turn gave his son a life prison sentence. |
Barlow and Chambers were caught in Kuala Lumpur which is in Malaysia. Bangkok is in Thailand which does not execute drug traffickers but they will probably execute the railway worker who raped and murdered an 8 year old girl and threw her out of a train. You actually get more jail time here for insulting the King than dealing drugs.
When you apply for a passport it comes with a leaflet from DFAT saying "Death penalties apply in some countries for drug smuggling". Your first risk minimisation strategy would be to avoid them. |
Thanks ronrat it's been a while but I will say, same same but different. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | ^ And that's exactly the view that some cultural relativists might take—it's their country, and we should tolerate it accordingly. The difference is, of course, that some things should not be tolerated, and some people—me included—think that institutionalised murder is one of them.
I guess the rule is, does this phenomenon hurt anyone else? Public nudity on the beach doesn't; capital punishment most certainly does. |
A very reasoned response, David - well done. I don't agree with capital punishment for many reasons, the simplest of which is that I don't think the powerful, fallible state should do anything to a citizen that is irreversible. However, I never understand the argument that it is institutionalised "murder". There is, to me, a clear difference between murder and the implicit contract that is made when someone breaks a well-understood law, the sanctions of which are known beforehand, and that person is then tried and convicted through an independent process with successive levels of appeal. I still don't agree with it, but I think it oversimplifies to call the death penalty "murder" in the sense that we usually use the term. |
Yes, I see your point, and I concede that "murder" is a loaded term here. There is a significant difference between an individual act and one committed by the government. But I also think we too easily overlook the gravity of taking a human life by using neutral terms such as "capital punishment". At the end of the day, the state is taking the life of someone who is physically healthy and doesn't want to die.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Well in this case then, they should have done a better job packing
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: |
Yes, I see your point, and I concede that "murder" is a loaded term here. There is a significant difference between an individual act and one committed by the government. But I also think we too easily overlook the gravity of taking a human life by using neutral terms such as "capital punishment". At the end of the day, the state is taking the life of someone who is physically healthy and doesn't want to die. |
Yes, I think the death penalty is a better term, and judicial killing is fine.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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And with the 2 in Bali getting closer to being executed we have different people making noises about penalising Indonesia.
Julie Bishop making noises that less people might holiday there. Well if less people go there trying to traffic drugs that can only be a good thing.
Now I hear Christine Milne on the radio talking about sanctions against Indonesia when in the past she's lectured about the importance of the relationship. Dear oh lord.
In a few days these 2 will be dead and quickly forgotten.
Is it the right thing to happen? Probably not.
Do i care? Not really.
Indonesia has the death penalty and has the right to use it, whether we like it or not. When you go to another country you're subject to their laws, same as when people come here they're subject to ours. Don't like the laws, don't go there.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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I can't remember seeing this posted up here so I'll post it (again?).
It's interesting reading.
| Quote: | The OTHER evil plot by the Bali Nine kingpin: Five days before 'God-fearing' Andrew Chan was arrested, two teenage drug mules were caught in Hong Kong with heroin-filled condoms
*Bali Nine kingpin Andrew Chan masterminded another overseas heroin deal that went wrong
* Rachel Diaz, 17, of Sydney, was arrested with two others in a Hong Kong hotel
*Diaz, a trainee hairdresser, and Chris Vo, then 15, were due to swallow 114 heroin-filled condoms when police raided their hotel room
*Chan sent threats from Kerobokan jail to Diaz's Hong Kong prison cell, telling her to keep her 'mouth shut'
*Chan set up at least 17 young Australians who were arrest on heroin charges
*He was part of a 'predatory crime syndicate' which recruited young people as drug mules
*Chan and cohort Myuran Sumurakan face death by firing squad after the new Indonesian President rejected any chance of a pardon
Bali Nine drug kingpin Andrew Chan, who is facing death by firing squad in Indonesia, masterminded another international heroin smuggling attempt out of Hong Kong - but the operation failed, resulting in three young Australians being jailed.
Daily Mail Australia can reveal for the first time that Chan enlisted Sydney teenager Rachel Diaz, 17, and Chris Vo, 15, both from western Sydney, as drug couriers to smuggle $1 million worth of heroin in condoms, which they were to swallow in Hong Kong and bring back to Australia.
The Hong Kong deal was to run at the same time as the Bali Nine operation - when Chan, Myuran Sumurakan and seven Australian mules were arrested, some with the drugs strapped to their bodies.
It can also be revealed that after his own arrest, Chan wrote a letter to Diaz in Hong Kong, ordering her to keep her mouth shut.
Chan and syndicate partner Sumurakan are on death row and were told this week by new Indonesian President Joko Widodo that he would not grant them pardons, despite their attempts to rehabilitate themselves behind bars. They could face death by firing squad in coming months.
Chan, who Indonesian police called 'The Godfather' when they arrested him, was a key organiser of the Australian end of the smuggling and distribution network, which was detailed in the Hong Kong court during Diaz's trial and described as a 'predatory crime syndicate'.
In just two weeks in April 2005, the syndicate was responsible for the arrest, and later the incarceration, of 17 young Australians for heroin trafficking in three countries.
The hotel room in a seedy Hong Kong district where Rachel Diaz, 17, and Chris Vo, 15, were preparing to swallow 114 heroin-filled condoms and make the eight-hour flight back to Sydney
Frantic father: Coca Cola representative Ferdinand Diaz, pictured in Hong Kong, made several attempts to get his daughter freed from prison
Fallen girl: Rachel Diaz (pictured as a schoolgirl) had churchgoing migrant parents who were devastated and bewildered when she was arrested in a Hong Kong hotel with a 15-year-old boy and charged with heroin trafficking
Frantic father: Coca Cola representative Ferdinand Diaz, pictured in Hong Kong, made several attempts to get his daughter (pictured during her school days) freed from prison
Diaz, Vo and their minder Hutchinson Tran, 22, were arrested in a low budget Hong Kong hotel room on April 12, 2005.
They were found with 114 condoms filled with up to 1kg of heroin - but Diaz had had second thoughts about taking part in the operation, for which they were to be paid $200 for each 5cm-long condom they injested.
Diaz's father Ferdinand failed to get his daughter released on bail and 12 months after her arrest, she was sentenced to 10 years and eight months. Vo, by then 16, received nine years, and Tran got 13 years and four months.
All have since been released, with Diaz serving out the majority of her sentence in a NSW women's prison after being transferred in February 2009 under the International Transfer of Prisoners' Act.
Five days after her arrest, Bali police arrested Chan, Sukumaran and their mules Renae Lawrence, Martin Stephens, Scott Rush, Si Yi Chen, Matthew Norman, Michael Czugaj and Tan Duc Thanh Nguyen. The seven couriers recruited by Chan and Sukumaran have all received sentences ranging from 18 years to life.
Predator: Death row inmate Andrew Chan, who claims he would serve God as a pastor if he was set free, was a cynical drug trafficker who landed at least 17 young Australians in jail before his arrest
Several trips: Panel beater turned drug mule Renae Lawrence made two successful trips for Chan from Bali with heroin strapped to her body but was caught on the third, in April 2005, and sentenced to 20 years
Young dupes: Former Wollongong bartende, Martin Stephens (left) and Sydney catering worker Matthew Norman (right), pictured at Kerobokan Jail, Bali, in 2007, two years after they were duped by Chan who had promised them quick riches by acting as heroin mules in Bali
Behind closed doors: Lured to this hotel in Hong Kong's Tsim Sha Tsui district by a drug gang which preyed on young Australians, Diaz, 17, and Vo, 15, were arrested with 1kg of heroin in condoms
Bali Nine member smoking crack cocaine in jail (related)
Both the Bali Nine and the Hong Kong drug smuggling deals were connected with a third, lesser-known attempted heroin importation in which Chan and Sukumaran conspired with four young Brisbane people.
Daily Mail Australia can also reveal that in the lead up to the Bali Nine and the Hong Kong operations Chan and Sukumaran visited a young Korean-Australian who was later arrested and charged over the Hong Kong conspiracy following the arrest of Diaz, Vo and Tran.
A Korean-Australian and a co-conspirator were charged with plotting to import the packages of heroin that Diaz and 15-year-old Vo were meant to swallow.
HISTORY OF THE BALI NINE
The Bali Nine are a group of nine Australians who attempted to smuggle 8.3kg of heroin from Bali to Australia on August 17, 2005.
Drug mastermind Andrew Chan and his cohort, Myuran Sukumaran, recruited six men and one woman aged between 19 and 30 years old and strapped heroin to their bodies.
Renae Lawrence, Martin Stephens, Scott Rush, Si Yi Chen, Matthew Norman Michael Czugaj and Tan Duc Thanh Nguyen were arrested in a hotel and at Denapasar airport and taken to Bali's Kerobokan prison.
Lawrence was sentenced to 20 years, Rush's sentence has been redeuced to 18 years and the other five mules are serving life sentences.
Chan and Sukumaran were given the death penalty and in early December 2014, Indonesia's new President Joko Widodo said the men would face execution by firing squad.
With prison remission, Lawrence's current earliest possible release date is February 2026.
Chan visited the Korean-Australian at least three times in different NSW prisons and once with Sukumaran in late 2004, just before the two made two 'practice' runs to Indonesia with several of the future Bali Nine couriers, including Renae Lawrence, and successfully returned to Australia with heroin strapped to their bodies.
Chan, who was a manager at a Sydney catering company, duped three of his staff - Lawrence, Norman and Stephens - into becoming mules, promising them thousands of dollars in return.
Following the arrests in Hong Kong and Bali within days of each other - and a series of other arrests in Sydney and Brisbane just days later - police said the Bali Nine had no connection with the Diaz case.
However, detectives have exclusively revealed that Chan was in contact with Diaz for months and all three trafficking deals were connected to a Sydney-based Chinese drug smuggling syndicate which had links to Myanmar.
Chan, who has found God in prison, was regularly visiting another convicted drug dealer in prison as he was conspiring to commit the Bali Nine deal.
Diaz and Vo were recruited to go to Hong Kong as drug mules, police say, on the promise of $6000 or $7000 for a single trip.
Diaz, a trainee hairdresser with churchgoing Filipino migrant parents, and Vo, a McDonald's worker and son of a single mother of Vietnamese origin, came from modest income families in western Sydney.
Neither had previously known connections with drug syndicates, nor had they met before they flew out from Sydney to Hong Kong in April 2005.
Diaz's parents, Ferdinand and Maria, believed she was having a sleep-over at a friend's house and then reported her missing when she failed to return.
Greedy fool: Myuran Sukumaran (pictured arriving at court to appeal his death sentence) admits his role in the Bali Nine drug deal just because he wanted an easy life with cars, money and women
On the day she and Vo were due home, April 13, police believe the Korean-Australian went to Sydney Airport to collect them, armed with three packets of laxatives.
Diaz and Vo were in a room at the Imperial Hotel, in Hong Long's Tsim Sha Tsui backpacker district, with the 114 heroin-filled condoms, supplied by Hutchinson Tran, when police burst in.
Vo was prepared to swallow 30 packages but Diaz had apparently reconsidered, realising they could burst inside her stomach during the eight-hour flight back to Sydney.
Earliest possible release: With prison governor's remissions, Bali Nine drug smuggler Renae Lawrence will be the first of the group to gain freedom, in February 2026 at the earliest
Meanwhile, four Australians from Brisbane - aged 24, 22, 18, and 19, had been arrested in Brisbane and charged with conspiring with Chan and Sukumaran of conspiring to import heroin to Australia.
A fifth, Khanh Thanh Ly, 24, was arrested in Sydney. Ly subsequently pleaded guilty, but said he was only a 'runaround' in the gang whose members included Sukumaran, and was never paid but did it for the 'glamour' and entries to parties and clubs.
The Bali Nine incident was linked to one of the world's biggest drug syndicates, Crescent Moon, which has smuggled large quantities of heroin from Myanmar (Burma) to Western countries.
Chan has admitted he saw the Bali Nine deal as a 'quick pay day'. He has never spoken about his involvement in the Hong Kong deal.
In an interview with ABC TV he pleaded for clemency, saying if his death sentence was commuted and he was released from prison, he wanted to help the community and become a minister of religion. |
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2869230/Bali-Nine-ringleader-Andrew-Chan-mastermind-international-drug-deal-went-horribly-wrong-threatened-17-year-old-mule-Hong-Kong-jail-mouth-shut.html#ixzz3RmBzTRPX |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| stui magpie wrote: | Now I hear Christine Milne on the radio talking about sanctions against Indonesia when in the past she's lectured about the importance of the relationship. Dear oh lord.
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So has every other politician of any note. Why pick out the one you dislike as if she was the only one?
(I don't care for her much either, but that's beside the point.)
| stui magpie wrote: | In a few days these 2 will be dead and quickly forgotten.
Is it the right thing to happen? Probably not.
Do i care? Not really. |
Exactly. Next topic please.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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It's interesting, there are people who genuinely believe that Chan has been rehabilitated in gaol and is now a good man, there's others who believe that his rehabilitation is a convenient tactic to get out of execution and nothing more.
We can start analysing the back story and debating whether he deserves to die because of what he did, deserves to live for the person he's become and endless variations ad infinitum.
At the end of the day, he knowingly committed a crime in a country that punishes that crime with death. He took that risk knowing full well what the consequences were. Whether those consequences be judged as fair, moral, justified or not by others doesn't really matter.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| The hypocrisy of the born to rule party is amazing. They sent these guys to their deaths and now they are putting on a show to fool everyone that they actually care when they never have. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: |
In a few days these 2 will be dead and quickly forgotten.
Is it the right thing to happen? Probably not.
Do i care? Not really.
Indonesia has the death penalty and has the right to use it, whether we like it or not. When you go to another country you're subject to their laws, same as when people come here they're subject to ours. Don't like the laws, don't go there. |
Yep and after reading the above about Chan, I hope he sees it coming
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Culprit wrote: | | The hypocrisy of the born to rule party is amazing. They sent these guys to their deaths and now they are putting on a show to fool everyone that they actually care when they never have. |
YeAh I don't get why the cops here didn't wait til the lane was in the air, so they were arrested here. With the tip off coming from a concerned parent you reckon they would have kept it to themselves knowing this would be the outcome
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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They sent themselves to their death by trafficking a significant quantity of illegal drugs in a country that has the death penalty for amongst other crimes - drug trafficking and it isn't something they introduced after they were arrested!!
It's not like you can miss the warnings  - they weren't addicts forced into something to pay off their own drug debt or the like - they did it for " easy" money - and they picked the wrong country.
I can just see Australians cancelling their trip to Bali cause 2 drug traffickers were caught and executed - NOT!
Hopefully it might stop others considering doing the same in the future!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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I'm hoping less Aussie bogans go to Bali, especially the WA variety. They are a embarrassment.  |
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Doc63
Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: Newport
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| Culprit wrote: | | I'm hoping less Aussie bogans go to Bali, especially the WA variety. They are a embarrassment. |
I don't care where they go, as long as they stay away from Fiji.
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I hold a cup of wisdom, but there is nothing within. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Tannin wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Now I hear Christine Milne on the radio talking about sanctions against Indonesia when in the past she's lectured about the importance of the relationship. Dear oh lord.
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So has every other politician of any note. Why pick out the one you dislike as if she was the only one?
(I don't care for her much either, but that's beside the point.) . |
She's the only one I've heard actually proposing sanctions against Indonesia over this.
Bishop has been carrying on about how people might/should stop going there, I mentioned that, it's nearly as stupid.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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