Gun laws in USA??
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| think positive wrote: | w.........
personal responsibility. l....... |
Yes, of course the perpertrator is responsible for his behaviour. However his behaviour was enabled (to what extent should be the discussion point) by the irresponsible comments by Trump and his admin / cronies by creating the conditions in part for a murderer to act out his racist views.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | An opinion.
| Quote: | Washington (CNN)A top official at an influential coalition of Jewish Republicans on Monday defended President Donald Trump's response to the mass killing at a Pittsburgh synagogue, arguing those who say Trump's harsh rhetoric has stoked national divisions are trying to "score partisan political attacks."
"There are too many people who are using this tragedy for partisan gain," Matt Brooks, who runs the Republican Jewish Coalition, told CNN.
He called Trump's condemnation of anti-Semitism in the wake of Saturday's shooting "very powerful and very strong" and said he has encouraged White House officials to stay the course in the days ahead. |
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/29/politics/republican-jewish-group-trump/index.html |
Of course he would say that, he's partisan 
However for a more considered view try this by a non party member and an older person:
From an essentailly right of centre newspaper
Ethno-nationalism, petty politics and resentment of Jews: Pittsburgh shows us an antisemitism for the 21st century
https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/the-pittsburgh-synagogue-shooting-showed-an-antisemitism-for-the-21st-century-1.471762
Trump et al need to stop pedalling hate about minority groups for base politcal reasons.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| watt price tully wrote: | | MJ23 wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | MJ23 wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | Farrakhan just days ago said, So when they talk about Farrakhan, call me a hater, you know they do, call me an anti-Semite stop it! Im anti-termite! This bloke is mates with Obama, Clinton, Ellison, Sharpton and Jackson. They all sat with each other at Aretha's funeral. |
...... |
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It is not quite but almost the exclusive domain of the right. No iff's buts or maybe's about it.
The ADLs study concludes online disinformation and abuse is disproportionately targeting Jews in the US during this crucial political moment.
Prior to the election of President Donald Trump, anti-Semitic harassment and attacks were rare and unexpected, even for Jewish Americans who were prominently situated in the public eye. Following his election, anti-Semitism has become normalized and harassment is a daily occurrence, the report says.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-online-attacks-on-jews-ramp-up-before-election-day/
There are many more examples. Stop trying to defend the obvious about Trump & his supporters / administration tjhat they have provided the environment ripe for white male right wing murderers to kill people or hurt people because of their religion / race / ethnicity / group etc. |
I dont beleive the "far right" are indicative examples of Trumps Base any more than I beleive the "Far left" are examples of Schumer, Clinton, Watters, Booker or Harris base. ( Although Watters did in fact openly support riots and an exiled police killer so .........could be).
I disagree absolutely that Trump, his admin and supporters have provided the environment you speak of. .......
Was this fostered by Obama or the current/previous Democrats in charge ? |
You too are conflating issues.
In terms of murder of Jews and Blacks, Blacks in terms of walking into a church and killing people simply because thay are black & the same for Jews in the US as happened that is, hate crimes or terror notblack on black violence or urban violence. You've just managed to divert the issue here.
Let me put it this way MJ23. Do you think Trump and his admin / cronies have played any role in any way contributed to creating the environment or enabling the violent right? Lets say anywhere from 1-100% since Trump and Bannon started the election campaign?
Again I draw your attention to the US Anti Defamation League and their research. In 2017 anti semtitic incidents have increased by 57% since the election Trump was made president. |
Yep from 1-100% can comfortably say 0%.
Comfortably.
Far right AND far left crazys are just that - crazy.......... |
So this guy acted in a vacuum is what you're saying. There wasn't any context for his beahviour and certainly none of which was contributed to by Trump, Fox, Trumps admin and his cronies.
And you used the word simplistic before? Interesting. |
Lol your making my exact point.
You've got no consideration for anything other than Trump and "his cronies". This is the goto and deciding factor. You even call out Fox but no other network.
Mental heath, Physical health, parents and upbringing, unhealthy relationships, stress, PTSD, abuse, personality, violence in games, movies, social media twisting of messaging, socioeconomic factors and the nutter is just plain evil............
Yep, simplistic - thats the word I would use to the finger pointers that only point one way.
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan
Last edited by MJ23 on Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | An opinion.
| Quote: | Washington (CNN)A top official at an influential coalition of Jewish Republicans on Monday defended President Donald Trump's response to the mass killing at a Pittsburgh synagogue, arguing those who say Trump's harsh rhetoric has stoked national divisions are trying to "score partisan political attacks."
"There are too many people who are using this tragedy for partisan gain," Matt Brooks, who runs the Republican Jewish Coalition, told CNN.
He called Trump's condemnation of anti-Semitism in the wake of Saturday's shooting "very powerful and very strong" and said he has encouraged White House officials to stay the course in the days ahead. |
https://edition.cnn.com/2018/10/29/politics/republican-jewish-group-trump/index.html |
Of course he would say that, he's partisan
However for a more considered view try this by a non party member and an older person:
From an essentailly right of centre newspaper
Ethno-nationalism, petty politics and resentment of Jews: Pittsburgh shows us an antisemitism for the 21st century
https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/the-pittsburgh-synagogue-shooting-showed-an-antisemitism-for-the-21st-century-1.471762
Trump et al need to stop pedalling hate about minority groups for base politcal reasons. |
Every alternate view is partisan at the moment.
CNN, MSNBC, Times, Post and yes FOX are all partisan now - this is the biggest issue.
And Trump attacks the dregs of society for ALL groups. There is no minority / majority. He is an equal opportunity caller out of hate and violence. Its the Media who try to make out that MS13 are full of misunderstood youth and when Trump attacks them he is actaully attacking all non white race groups.
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| watt price tully wrote: | | think positive wrote: | w.........
personal responsibility. l....... |
Yes, of course the perpertrator is responsible for his behaviour. However his behaviour was enabled (to what extent should be the discussion point) by the irresponsible comments by Trump and his admin / cronies by creating the conditions in part for a murderer to act out his racist views. |
I cant even....thats a long winding road you've used to connect the dots that suits your narrative. I mean this nutter has a history and part of that is attacking Trump and his policy on Israel.
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| MJ23 wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | There is an obvious difference between expressing a political view, on the one hand and peddling deliberately divisive, hateful rhetoric on the other. |
Agree - the problem is by who's definition does a political view become divisive, hateful, rhetoric ?
Currently its the left who have this as their talking points attacking Trump, his Admin and republicans. Ironically they do it through divisive, hateful rhetoric. |
Well, not yours, obviously, since your response suggests that none of those words has any meaning. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| MJ23 wrote: | | think positive wrote: | war, politics, footy, life, its all the same, a power game, look at the atrocities of world war 1 and 2, so much finger pointing, im guessing the countries we point fingers at have a reason to point back.
doesnt give anyone the right to walk into a church and shoot people.
personal responsibility. like manners, its $%$ed |
Could not agree more. Really makes you despair.
That said - the exception should always be Carlton and its supporters. They are just all kinds of wrong |
And umpires
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Wokko wrote: | |
Nice photo of the POTUS. Oh wait, it's not. False analogy. No hypocricy because the analogy is simply false.
Now where that pizza shooting you attirbuted to Clinton: that's right it was fake news from you.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| For you [b]Maybe the problem? |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| MJ23 wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | think positive wrote: | w.........
personal responsibility. l....... |
Yes, of course the perpertrator is responsible for his behaviour. However his behaviour was enabled (to what extent should be the discussion point) by the irresponsible comments by Trump and his admin / cronies by creating the conditions in part for a murderer to act out his racist views. |
I cant even....thats a long winding road you've used to connect the dots that suits your narrative. I mean this nutter has a history and part of that is attacking Trump and his policy on Israel. |
If you choose not to see then that limts your capcity to see. Either its simplisitic or its a long winding road. Now wait it's both
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| MJ23 wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | MJ23 wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | Farrakhan just days ago said, So when they talk about Farrakhan, call me a hater, you know they do, call me an anti-Semite stop it! Im anti-termite! This bloke is mates with Obama, Clinton, Ellison, Sharpton and Jackson. They all sat with each other at Aretha's funeral. |
Yeah, I forgot this. You could also add the increasingly virulent language used by people like Sarsour and the women's march. Also, here's a tweet from Ilhan Omar the Democratic congressional candidate: "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel."
So you can argue that this guy is just as much the left's guy as he is the rights.
I don't argue this. I argue that he is the person responsible for his horrific crime. |
I have no issue with anti-semitism and anti zionism being conflated by the left or by Farrakan: old news. has been going on for ages. However, don't be too clever by half: which left wingers in the US have killed or perpetrated violence on Jews?
Muslim anti semitism is a huge issue (don't bother with the arabs are semites too - we all know what we are talking about) some of which like Trumps active supporters fo down the classiucal anti semtiic tropes regarding not just Soros but Jews trying to control the world stuff. It's where Islamists and extreme right wingers agree.
It is not quite but almost the exclusive domain of the right. No iff's buts or maybe's about it.
The ADLs study concludes online disinformation and abuse is disproportionately targeting Jews in the US during this crucial political moment.
Prior to the election of President Donald Trump, anti-Semitic harassment and attacks were rare and unexpected, even for Jewish Americans who were prominently situated in the public eye. Following his election, anti-Semitism has become normalized and harassment is a daily occurrence, the report says.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-online-attacks-on-jews-ramp-up-before-election-day/
There are many more examples. Stop trying to defend the obvious about Trump & his supporters / administration tjhat they have provided the environment ripe for white male right wing murderers to kill people or hurt people because of their religion / race / ethnicity / group etc. |
I dont beleive the "far right" are indicative examples of Trumps Base any more than I beleive the "Far left" are examples of Schumer, Clinton, Watters, Booker or Harris base. ( Although Watters did in fact openly support riots and an exiled police killer so .........could be).
I disagree absolutely that Trump, his admin and supporters have provided the environment you speak of. Its so simplistic its not funny and Im tired of it. Radical Islam to the Muslim faith is what KKK is the the catholic faith. By your logic the fact that one element of the faith can be taken to the extreme is grounds for rejecting the whole faith outright. If this is your goto again, Trump will get elected again because there is just no conceding of facts on the left.
White male murders........really. There have been 441 homicides in Chicago this year from what I can tell, 337 of them were African American. Care to guess how many of them were killed by white males ?
Was this fostered by Obama or the current/previous Democrats in charge ? |
You too are conflating issues.
In terms of murder of Jews and Blacks, Blacks in terms of walking into a church and killing people simply because thay are black & the same for Jews in the US as happened that is, hate crimes or terror notblack on black violence or urban violence. You've just managed to divert the issue here.
Let me put it this way MJ23. Do you think Trump and his admin / cronies have played any role in any way contributed to creating the environment or enabling the violent right? Lets say anywhere from 1-100% since Trump and Bannon started the election campaign?
Again I draw your attention to the IUS Anti Defamation League and their research. In 2017 anti semtitic incidents have increased by 57% since the election Trump was made president. |
Yep from 1-100% can comfortably say 0%.
Comfortably.
Far right AND far left crazys are just that - crazy.
Trump GOT ELECTED because voters outside his base agree with the current problems of illegal immigration among many other things that Obama ignored and is affecting middle America.
Thats MIDDLE america. They are not left or right.
I no more blame Trump for talking to a current problem than CNN and all their mates who plaster each caravan all over the news regardless of what Trump says or doesn't say.
I Blame Trump no more than I blamed Sanders for the Shooting of Steve Scalise or Watters and Clinton for the bullets shot into the Republican campaign office in Volusia County.
I blame Trump no more than I blame the whole Muslim faith over 911. Or Ellison, Watters and even Obama who have supported Farrakhan who has far too many anti-Semitic quotes out there to list including calling all Jews termites, Satanic and poison on the world.
Free speech does not create fanaticism and terrorists - the suppression of speech, ideas and open platforms with which the voters can choose in a democratic Republic society does.
Id suggest there has been no bigger supporter of Israel by any US president in the last 20 years and this as much as anything else could trigger a rise in anti- semitic incidents. I mean he officially recognised Jerusalem as the capital - Obama, Clinton, Bush had congress support and could have done so but didn't and even criticised him for doing so. Trump also threw out the Iran deal.
In the end I agree with you. You cannot argue a case in the current climate. You either agree with group speak or .........
I mean whats the point in trying when a sentence is constructed as "is my point the only correct one and a statement of undisputed fact ?...absolutely the only argument is to what extent....."
Anyway, cant suggest Trump doesn't say whats on his mind and in the end he will either go too far for the voters or they again will quietly disengage from conversations where their views are seen as "thinking that is conspicuous by its absence" and just vote.
Seems to be what happened in 2016. |
No I've not mentioned or believe your straw man arguments here of which there are many.
I've already stated the issues yet you bang on about a standard response to issues I've not raised. There are many reasons why Trump got elected but none of my posts here have been about that; n so doing they become distractions and misdirections.
Free speech ? whoever raised the isues of free speech or limits to it? It seems you don't read what others write: instead you put up a series of arguments not related to what I've posted to advance a line of argument not put forward by me but adressed to others. Bizarre.
Let me be clear: Trump and his admin / supporters and cronies etc have contributed in part (in my view a large part) to create an environment which has enabled these racist white murderers to feel it is OK to murder Jews and Blacks. The rest that you've noted is simply manafactured by you to make a case that is unrelated through straw man and deflection to what I've posted.
OK that's the way you choose to deal with the issues. You falsely attirbute to me arguments I have not made through your responses & this is simply being dishonest. You don't have to agree with me but the way you've gone about addressing the issues is being less than honest by straw man and deflection / misdirection.
Trumps support of Israel is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. I do like what he has done with some parts of the UN though.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| watt price tully wrote: | | MJ23 wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | MJ23 wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | Farrakhan just days ago said, So when they talk about Farrakhan, call me a hater, you know they do, call me an anti-Semite stop it! Im anti-termite! This bloke is mates with Obama, Clinton, Ellison, Sharpton and Jackson. They all sat with each other at Aretha's funeral. |
Yeah, I forgot this. You could also add the increasingly virulent language used by people like Sarsour and the women's march. Also, here's a tweet from Ilhan Omar the Democratic congressional candidate: "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel."
So you can argue that this guy is just as much the left's guy as he is the rights.
I don't argue this. I argue that he is the person responsible for his horrific crime. |
I have no issue with anti-semitism and anti zionism being conflated by the left or by Farrakan: old news. has been going on for ages. However, don't be too clever by half: which left wingers in the US have killed or perpetrated violence on Jews?
Muslim anti semitism is a huge issue (don't bother with the arabs are semites too - we all know what we are talking about) some of which like Trumps active supporters fo down the classiucal anti semtiic tropes regarding not just Soros but Jews trying to control the world stuff. It's where Islamists and extreme right wingers agree.
It is not quite but almost the exclusive domain of the right. No iff's buts or maybe's about it.
The ADLs study concludes online disinformation and abuse is disproportionately targeting Jews in the US during this crucial political moment.
Prior to the election of President Donald Trump, anti-Semitic harassment and attacks were rare and unexpected, even for Jewish Americans who were prominently situated in the public eye. Following his election, anti-Semitism has become normalized and harassment is a daily occurrence, the report says.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-online-attacks-on-jews-ramp-up-before-election-day/
There are many more examples. Stop trying to defend the obvious about Trump & his supporters / administration tjhat they have provided the environment ripe for white male right wing murderers to kill people or hurt people because of their religion / race / ethnicity / group etc. |
I dont beleive the "far right" are indicative examples of Trumps Base any more than I beleive the "Far left" are examples of Schumer, Clinton, Watters, Booker or Harris base. ( Although Watters did in fact openly support riots and an exiled police killer so .........could be).
I disagree absolutely that Trump, his admin and supporters have provided the environment you speak of. Its so simplistic its not funny and Im tired of it. Radical Islam to the Muslim faith is what KKK is the the catholic faith. By your logic the fact that one element of the faith can be taken to the extreme is grounds for rejecting the whole faith outright. If this is your goto again, Trump will get elected again because there is just no conceding of facts on the left.
White male murders........really. There have been 441 homicides in Chicago this year from what I can tell, 337 of them were African American. Care to guess how many of them were killed by white males ?
Was this fostered by Obama or the current/previous Democrats in charge ? |
You too are conflating issues.
In terms of murder of Jews and Blacks, Blacks in terms of walking into a church and killing people simply because thay are black & the same for Jews in the US as happened that is, hate crimes or terror notblack on black violence or urban violence. You've just managed to divert the issue here.
Let me put it this way MJ23. Do you think Trump and his admin / cronies have played any role in any way contributed to creating the environment or enabling the violent right? Lets say anywhere from 1-100% since Trump and Bannon started the election campaign?
Again I draw your attention to the IUS Anti Defamation League and their research. In 2017 anti semtitic incidents have increased by 57% since the election Trump was made president. |
Yep from 1-100% can comfortably say 0%.
Comfortably.
Far right AND far left crazys are just that - crazy.
Trump GOT ELECTED because voters outside his base agree with the current problems of illegal immigration among many other things that Obama ignored and is affecting middle America.
Thats MIDDLE america. They are not left or right.
I no more blame Trump for talking to a current problem than CNN and all their mates who plaster each caravan all over the news regardless of what Trump says or doesn't say.
I Blame Trump no more than I blamed Sanders for the Shooting of Steve Scalise or Watters and Clinton for the bullets shot into the Republican campaign office in Volusia County.
I blame Trump no more than I blame the whole Muslim faith over 911. Or Ellison, Watters and even Obama who have supported Farrakhan who has far too many anti-Semitic quotes out there to list including calling all Jews termites, Satanic and poison on the world.
Free speech does not create fanaticism and terrorists - the suppression of speech, ideas and open platforms with which the voters can choose in a democratic Republic society does.
Id suggest there has been no bigger supporter of Israel by any US president in the last 20 years and this as much as anything else could trigger a rise in anti- semitic incidents. I mean he officially recognised Jerusalem as the capital - Obama, Clinton, Bush had congress support and could have done so but didn't and even criticised him for doing so. Trump also threw out the Iran deal.
In the end I agree with you. You cannot argue a case in the current climate. You either agree with group speak or .........
I mean whats the point in trying when a sentence is constructed as "is my point the only correct one and a statement of undisputed fact ?...absolutely the only argument is to what extent....."
Anyway, cant suggest Trump doesn't say whats on his mind and in the end he will either go too far for the voters or they again will quietly disengage from conversations where their views are seen as "thinking that is conspicuous by its absence" and just vote.
Seems to be what happened in 2016. |
No I've not mentioned or believe your straw man arguments here of which there are many.
I've already stated the issues yet you bang on about a standard response to issues I've not raised. There are many reasons why Trump got elected but none of my posts here have been about that; n so doing they become distractions and misdirections.
Free speech ? whoever raised the isues of free speech or limits to it? It seems you don't read what others write: instead you put up a series of arguments not related to what I've posted to advance a line of argument not put forward by me but adressed to others. Bizarre.
Let me be clear: Trump and his admin / supporters and cronies etc have contributed in part (in my view a large part) to create an environment which has enabled these racist white murderers to feel it is OK to murder Jews and Blacks. The rest that you've noted is simply manafactured by you to make a case that is unrelated through straw man and deflection to what I've posted.
OK that's the way you choose to deal with the issues. You falsely attirbute to me arguments I have not made through your responses & this is simply being dishonest. You don't have to agree with me but the way you've gone about addressing the issues is being less than honest by straw man and deflection / misdirection.
Trumps support of Israel is neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned. I do like what he has done with some parts of the UN though. |
Rubbish - I dont twist or misdirect anything. Ive responded in good faith. This is a convenient response from you not to address the content. Fine.
This nutter shot up a synagogue and its reported he said he didn't vote for Trump because he was too soft on the Jewish faith.......yet you link this act to Trumps policy on immigration and boarder control. " its his Rhetoric !!!" May as well be Mabo.
You say incidents against the Jewish have gone up under Trump and again I point out the fact that many racists do not like Trumps policy and thoughts supporting Israel and you say Im what "falsely attribute to me arguments I have not made through your response"
Seriously, whatever.
The reason I keep going back to why Trump was elected is because this was the only point I was making from my very first post in this thread. Part of my post on Farrakhan was quoted for this discussion and you kept blaming Trump for the increase in incidents on Jews because of his Mabo...I mean rhetoric.
What Trump says is Rhetoric to those that are incapable of seeing or caring about both sides. Middle America are sick of being attacked for thinking "you know what, I do think it is far too easy for criminals to get into the country" so they just quietly say nothing....and vote.
Rhetoric - have a look at what the mainstream media have called him, his daughter....his son !!
Makes me sick. I dont care what party he leads, I hate the name calling and abuse.
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| watt price tully wrote: | | MJ23 wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | think positive wrote: | w.........
personal responsibility. l....... |
Yes, of course the perpertrator is responsible for his behaviour. However his behaviour was enabled (to what extent should be the discussion point) by the irresponsible comments by Trump and his admin / cronies by creating the conditions in part for a murderer to act out his racist views. |
I cant even....thats a long winding road you've used to connect the dots that suits your narrative. I mean this nutter has a history and part of that is attacking Trump and his policy on Israel. |
If you choose not to see then that limts your capcity to see. Either its simplisitic or its a long winding road. Now wait it's both |
Again, my point exactly. Its simple disguised by a long winding road.
You use a lot of words in a long winding argument that doesn't say anything much other than your one talking point. Its not simple language. Its actually condescending....and repetitive. 
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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