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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Whatever made you think I lack it? Did I ever say anything remotely judgemental about her? If you read back to the first thread on the incident, you'll actually see me defending her against posters deriding her as 'fat white trash' or something of the sort (this was before we or Goodes knew she was underage). Of course I have empathy for her. But nobody (including Goodes) has really been criticising her since the incident; at most, they've just expressed disappointment that someone so young could think that such slurs were acceptable (this is what Goodes's much-misunderstood "racism has a face" comment was referring to).
A lot of people misunderstand my position on the whole 'upbringing' topic because they think I mean that growing up in poverty or an abusive environment means you're destined for a life of crime. I don't believe that at all; of course, as you say, there are many people who have difficult upbringings and have honest, successful lives.
But that doesn't mean that our upbringings don't shape us. Of course they do. They're just one factor of many: others might be genes, or temperament, or intelligence, or social norms, or friendship networks, or education. All these factors and more come together to make us 'who we are', and 'who we are' of course tends to determine what we do. Obviously there's a reason why you and I don't beat our spouses or drive unregistered or get into machete fights or whatever. Have you ever even contemplated doing such things? I know I haven't.
You talk about choice. Many people nowadays believe that 'choice' is something of an illusion, and I fall into that camp. Think about it this way: what makes you decide to do one thing over another? Do you have control over what you want, how much you want it and how much you don't want something else? It's a difficult and much-debated philosophical problem that some might say has never really been resolved—probably most simply explained by this cartoon:
http://paraschopra.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/dilbert-free-will.png
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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3rd degree 
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Location: John Wren's tote
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Tragic for all concerned an ugly cycle in our society.
_________________
" Ohhh Banksy and out comes the Note Book".
www.facebook/the hybernators |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | Whatever made you think I lack it? Did I ever say anything remotely judgemental about her? If you read back to the first thread on the incident, you'll actually see me defending her against posters deriding her as 'fat white trash' or something of the sort (this was before we or Goodes knew she was underage). Of course I have empathy for her. But nobody (including Goodes) has really been criticising her since the incident; at most, they've just expressed disappointment that someone so young could think that such slurs were acceptable (this is what Goodes's much-misunderstood "racism has a face" comment was referring to).
A lot of people misunderstand my position on the whole 'upbringing' topic because they think I mean that growing up in poverty or an abusive environment means you're destined for a life of crime. I don't believe that at all; of course, as you say, there are many people who have difficult upbringings and have honest, successful lives.
But that doesn't mean that our upbringings don't shape us. Of course they do. They're just one factor of many: others might be genes, or temperament, or intelligence, or social norms, or friendship networks, or education. All these factors and more come together to make us 'who we are', and 'who we are' of course tends to determine what we do. Obviously there's a reason why you and I don't beat our spouses or drive unregistered or get into machete fights or whatever. Have you ever even contemplated doing such things? I know I haven't.
You talk about choice. Many people nowadays believe that 'choice' is something of an illusion, and I fall into that camp. Think about it this way: what makes you decide to do one thing over another? Do you have control over what you want, how much you want it and how much you don't want something else? It's a difficult and much-debated philosophical problem that some might say has never really been resolved—probably most simply explained by this cartoon:
http://paraschopra.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/dilbert-free-will.png |
If every action has an equal and opposite reaction, then all matter and energy was, at the moment of the big bang put into an irreversible and ultimately predictable motion. Therefore there is no such thing as free will, as everything, both matter and energy is already determined in its course.  |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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| David wrote: | Whatever made you think I lack it? Did I ever say anything remotely judgemental about her? If you read back to the first thread on the incident, you'll actually see me defending her against posters deriding her as 'fat white trash' or something of the sort (this was before we or Goodes knew she was underage). Of course I have empathy for her. But nobody (including Goodes) has really been criticising her since the incident; at most, they've just expressed disappointment that someone so young could think that such slurs were acceptable (this is what Goodes's much-misunderstood "racism has a face" comment was referring to).
A lot of people misunderstand my position on the whole 'upbringing' topic because they think I mean that growing up in poverty or an abusive environment means you're destined for a life of crime. I don't believe that at all; of course, as you say, there are many people who have difficult upbringings and have honest, successful lives.
But that doesn't mean that our upbringings don't shape us. Of course they do. They're just one factor of many: others might be genes, or temperament, or intelligence, or social norms, or friendship networks, or education. All these factors and more come together to make us 'who we are', and 'who we are' of course tends to determine what we do. Obviously there's a reason why you and I don't beat our spouses or drive unregistered or get into machete fights or whatever. Have you ever even contemplated doing such things? I know I haven't.
You talk about choice. Many people nowadays believe that 'choice' is something of an illusion, and I fall into that camp. Think about it this way: what makes you decide to do one thing over another? Do you have control over what you want, how much you want it and how much you don't want something else? It's a difficult and much-debated philosophical problem that some might say has never really been resolved—probably most simply explained by this cartoon:
http://paraschopra.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/dilbert-free-will.png |
Psycho babble David, science does not know enough about the chemistry of the brain and how it fundamentally works to make assertions, where this area is concerned it is mostly hypothetical. even their mind altering drugs (and example would be anti depressants) are a "we think it does"
So lets stick with what we do know, we string conscious thoughts together every day, way up consequences and take action based on this little scale in our head, that to me is right there equals choice.
You talk nurture, and then argue it using nature 
I apologize if you showed empathy for the girl, I didn't recall it. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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No worries!
We're learning a lot more about neuroscience right now than you might think. There's no doubt that we at least have an illusion of choice, and many (including some of those that otherwise agree with me that we don't actually have free will) think that it's an important illusion to maintain. So, I don't pretend that it's an easy thing to resolve.
As for nature and nurture, that's a really difficult thing to disentangle. The even more complicated thing is that our environments and experiences actually change our brain chemistry over time. It's a fascinating topic.
Anyway, one thing I do know for sure—and you can put all philosophical or scientific debate to one side here—is that totally free choice does not exist. Even if you fervently believe in free choice, you have to accept that: we don't act in a vacuum. It's a lot easier for some people to live a healthy, crime-free life than others.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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Ahhh..... the old nature vs nurture false dichotomy chestnut. Takes me back to 1st year sociology but I digress......
Your allowed to empathise with jurrah here David, but your being a touch defensive. Your initial post in here and indeed the following.......
| David wrote: |
........It's tough for a lot of people raised on the dogma of judgementalism and the illusion of total free will to accept that dysfunction like this always comes from somewhere.
.......but the kind of judgementalism expressed by some in this thread is not helpful at all. It's just a way of self-righteously looking down on others. |
Serves the purpose for you yourself to self-righteously look down upon others It's Unnecessary and I find it rather ironic (all be its entire premise is based on assumption and philosophical arguments, And let's face it ....philosophy....is well ....philosophy aka a wonderfully evolving fiction of wasted time).
People are well within thier right minds to not empathise with Jurrah. The inclusion of the plight of the aborginie and the philosophical babble on freedom of choice is a distraction from the point and as warranted as your not so subliminal backhand towards posters who disagree with you.
I'm no intellectual on the matter however ( and I'm sure many would argue there's a full stop at intellectual), so I'll leave you to stouche this one out with others but I thought I'd at least duck back in to assert my stance on the matter as I took issue with sections of your post and wanted to clarify.
In my mind,
Liam jurrah stuffed up, Liam jurrah paid the consequences of his own actions.
I wish his wife well and the other victims of his crimes and to him as a stand alone man I wish nothing.
I say the above with acknowledgment and in high regard of the plight of the aboriginie and with complete disregard to the pseudo science of philosophy. Both of which I feel are irrelevant to my opinion.
But hang my own head in shame over the crimes another man committed I absolutely will not.
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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For the record here's my last word on this matter.
The main victim in this recent episode is Liam's partner, whom is a friend of mine. Luckily she did not receive any lasting injury, nor even had the need for medical assistance. Nevertheless, it is a disgrace that she was subject to assault from Liam.
It is right that Liam be punished for such domestic violence.
Having said this, I also consider Liam to be a victim of the environment of grog and violence he and his community are drowning in.
I just hope that the media attention to Liam's situation, highlights the desperate plight of Aboriginal people in Central Australia, most of whom do not have the support networks available to Liam.
Finally, Liam is still my mate. |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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Understood Rudeboy. No arguments with any of that.
_________________
No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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Last edited by September Zeros on Fri May 09, 2014 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| September Zeros wrote: | | pseudo science of philosophy. |
Philosophy is not a science, it is, literally "love of wisdom", and is the study of existence, knowledge, life, reality through the prism of logic and rational thought. It is the ideas of philosophers that so often mould a society or at least reflect it. To dismiss Philosophy so readily is to embrace barbarism. |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| Wokko wrote: | | September Zeros wrote: | | pseudo science of philosophy. |
Philosophy is not a science, it is, literally "love of wisdom", and is the study of existence, knowledge, life, reality through the prism of logic and rational thought. It is the ideas of philosophers that so often mould a society or at least reflect it. To dismiss Philosophy so readily is to embrace barbarism. |
Then I'm embracing barbarism. 
_________________
No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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SZ, one of the first things I learned in philosophy class is that we are all philosophers. Philosophy is simply thinking about the world and coming to conclusions. That's something we all do—you're no exception.
When you say that you don't believe someone in Jurrah's position deserves empathy, that's a philosophical position. When Museman writes that we have to be accountable for our own choices, that's also a philosophical position. Laws, opinions and government policy are all based on philosophy.
I've tried to explain some of the reasoning behind my beliefs. You may dismiss that as 'babble', but I've tried to be as clear and concise as possible. At the end of the day, I think condemning Jurrah and treating him with contempt are unhelpful responses that won't help his victim, won't help society and won't help him. And why wouldn't we want to help him? If he can be genuinely rehabilitated and get his life back on track, everybody wins. Empathy and support from others is an important part of that. I'm happy to keep arguing that point as long as anyone cares to listen.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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Ok
_________________
No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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holdencaulfield
Joined: 12 Apr 2013
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I do not know Liam JUrrah personally however I do know that he has been convicted several times of assaulting females. On a personal level I have no time for men who bash women and girls. It is a Cowards Act.
So Liam Jurrah is in Jail where he deserves to be. I have never lifted a finger against a woman but if I did I would expect to be sent to the same place that Liam Jurrah now resides
My only sympathy is towards the people he has bashed |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| September Zeros wrote: | Ahhh..... the old nature vs nurture false dichotomy chestnut. Takes me back to 1st year sociology but I digress......
Your allowed to empathise with jurrah here David, but your being a touch defensive. Your initial post in here and indeed the following.......
| David wrote: |
........It's tough for a lot of people raised on the dogma of judgementalism and the illusion of total free will to accept that dysfunction like this always comes from somewhere.
.......but the kind of judgementalism expressed by some in this thread is not helpful at all. It's just a way of self-righteously looking down on others. |
Serves the purpose for you yourself to self-righteously look down upon others It's Unnecessary and I find it rather ironic (all be its entire premise is based on assumption and philosophical arguments, And let's face it ....philosophy....is well ....philosophy aka a wonderfully evolving fiction of wasted time).
People are well within thier right minds to not empathise with Jurrah. The inclusion of the plight of the aborginie and the philosophical babble on freedom of choice is a distraction from the point and as warranted as your not so subliminal backhand towards posters who disagree with you.
I'm no intellectual on the matter however ( and I'm sure many would argue there's a full stop at intellectual), so I'll leave you to stouche this one out with others but I thought I'd at least duck back in to assert my stance on the matter as I took issue with sections of your post and wanted to clarify.
In my mind,
Liam jurrah stuffed up, Liam jurrah paid the consequences of his own actions.
I wish his wife well and the other victims of his crimes and to him as a stand alone man I wish nothing.
I say the above with acknowledgment and in high regard of the plight of the aboriginie and with complete disregard to the pseudo science of philosophy. Both of which I feel are irrelevant to my opinion.
But hang my own head in shame over the crimes another man committed I absolutely will not. |
Yep
Grown ups have to accept responsibilities for their own actions. You have to admit the problem before you can fix it
If we really don't have free will, we may as well all quit trying now
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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David did go onto a bit of a tangent there - though, he's right absolute free will is demonstrably false. It's really quite amazing how well and universally situation predicts crime. Male? 20s-30s? Poor? Ethnic minority? etc, etc... which just goes to show that us male model citizens are far better people than women model citizens  - his general point though is a fair one. What purpose do comments of absolute condemnation serve? And what does it say about the person making them?
Given how clearly, objectively wrong they are, absolute comments about any person's character make little sense to me. Any person is made of complex and contradicting characteristics. Simplifying that to a cartoon sketch so we can safely put a label on it and distance it from ourselves, is childish.
No victim is ever only a victim (I mean over a lifetime), no perpetrator is ever only defined by their crime. I drove a bus once, doesn't make me a bus driver. Did Jurrah do wrong? Of course he did and he will rightly pay for that wrong. Was it a particularly serious crime for which he should never again be allowed into polite society? No, it seems to have been a fairly minor assault, less severe than Marley's on his victim.
And for the absolutists: Mandela was once a terrorist. Maybe he should never have been released from jail? Orson Welles, one of the true geniuses of cinema, treated his wife, Rita Hayworth, terribly (not necessarily talking physical assault), does that diminish his art? We can say that total condemnation is appropriate, it's what they do afterwards that matters and determines whether they can be shown any kind of forgiveness or empathy, but I say no. All people are a totality at every stage of their lives and we should make an attempt to see more than one facet. The most revered moral leaders have not been absolutists (Mandela, Ghandi, Jesus...), what hide for us mere mortals to think that we are fit to stand in judgement?
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Well done boys!
Last edited by AN_Inkling on Sat May 10, 2014 3:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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