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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| didick wrote: | | Nothing to "worry" about. If we have players caught up in it, let them face the consequences. So be it. Not sure we should be "worried". Get rid of them, if they are found. And no point speculating either. I'm sure there are rumours regarding players from lots of clubs. No point adding any fuel to the rumour fire here. |
the illicit drugs policy is now front and centre of footy media conversation.
i see a gcs player has just pulled the pin on his career. don't want to cast aspersions but ... hard not to draw a conclusion as to why it seems a bit abrupt.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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The general consensus on the Collingwood BF board is the players took Coke at the St Vomit festival (I knew those FKRs would get us eventually), some claim to have "inside knowledge".
Obvioisly nothing will be said until the B sample comes back, but when it does the 'we only took Coke' line will be the most likely defence, even if it isn't true.
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On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
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Neil Appleby 
Joined: 11 Feb 1998
Location: Melbourne
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I disagree with most here in Nick's on footballers and illicit drug use. Yes, I know some drugs are no more and possibly less harmful than alcohol, but the facts remain that alcohol is legal and illicit drugs are not. That being the case I think the policy should be changed.
During Season and including pre-season:
1 Strike - club informed, player suspended for 4 weeks
2 Strikes - player sacked.
I don't care what players do over their summer break and don't think there should be testing during the off-season, but once they return to training there should be zero tolerance. I know they are young, highly spirited, risk takers, but they are also highly trained, elite athletes on enormous salaries. No drugs for 10 months of the year is the price they pay for stardom.
_________________
After the epic draw comes the decisive knockout!
Collingwood rules the world again and Mick Malthouse fulfils his destiny with the twenty ten premiership and can you hear the people sing! |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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^ I don't understand your logic here. Why should there be zero tolerance? Who are the victims of their recreational drug use and why do the (in my mind, already draconian) punishments need to be expanded?
I respect your views on a lot of things, Neil, but this just seems like a desire to wield control over other people's lives for no good reason.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Last edited by David on Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Woods 
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne
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| Neil Appleby wrote: | I disagree with most here in Nick's on footballers and illicit drug use. Yes, I know some drugs are no more and possibly less harmful than alcohol, but the facts remain that alcohol is legal and illicit drugs are not. That being the case I think the policy should be changed.
During Season and including pre-season:
1 Strike - club informed, player suspended for 4 weeks
2 Strikes - player sacked.
I don't care what players do over their summer break and don't think there should be testing during the off-season, but once they return to training there should be zero tolerance. I know they are young, highly spirited, risk takers, but they are also highly trained, elite athletes on enormous salaries. No drugs for 10 months of the year is the price they pay for stardom. |
You can't give the players two months a year to commit criminal acts (and let's be real here - that's what possessing/using illegal drugs is). By that standard your giving them the green light to rape and murder as well - as long as they don't get caught and don't do it during the footy season.
There's also the matters raised by the Australian Crime Commission report released at the time the Essendon saga began. It made it clear that the motives of organised crime to make money out of sport were to Infiltrate, Associate, and Manipulate sports people.
For example: a Collingwood player in the off season falls in with a couple of friendly guys while on holiday, takes drugs with them. Later during the season these 'friends' make contact and reveal themselves as match fixers. They show the pics/video they took of him using drugs. They tell him to play dead next weekend or the incriminating evidence goes on YouTube, or to the media or the AFL. There are many such scenarios possible.
No, if you are going to be a professional sports person there can be no truck with drug use. Never. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Woods wrote: | | You can't give the players two months a year to commit criminal acts (and let's be real here - that's what possessing/using illegal drugs is). By that standard your giving them the green light to rape and murder as well - as long as they don't get caught do it during the footy season. |
I disagree with the rest of Neil's post, but this is one thing he gets right. If we're going to police AFL players' off-field behaviour 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for 10 months a year, it's right that they should at least get a couple of months out of that spotlight.
Is that a green light to rape and murder? Duh, no. There are things called laws, and AFL players are every bit as much subject to them as we are. We don't need the AFL or the club to put their oar in and reiterate the point, particularly at a time of year when they can't be expected to hold any jurisdiction over their behaviour anyway.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Woods
Joined: 21 Aug 2013
Location: Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Woods wrote: | | You can't give the players two months a year to commit criminal acts (and let's be real here - that's what possessing/using illegal drugs is). By that standard your giving them the green light to rape and murder as well - as long as they don't get caught do it during the footy season. |
I disagree with the rest of Neil's post, but this is one thing he gets right. If we're going to police AFL players' off-field behaviour 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for 10 months a year, it's right that they should at least get a couple of months out of that spotlight.
Is that a green light to rape and murder? Duh, no. There are things called laws, and AFL players are every bit as much subject to them as we are. We don't need the AFL or the club to put their oar in and reiterate the point, particularly at a time of year when they can't be expected to hold any jurisdiction over their behaviour. |
They are not off contract over the Christmas break.
They are expected to keep themselves in suitable condition to return to pre-season training in top nick. |
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Doc63
Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: Newport
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| David wrote: | ^ I don't understand your logic here. Why should there be zero tolerance? Who are the victims of their recreational drug use and why do the (in my mind, already draconian) punishments need to be expanded?
I respect your views on a lot of things, Neil, but this just seems like a desire to wield control over other people's lives for no good reason. |
They are not recreational drugs, they are illegal drugs.
There is no such thing a a recreational drug.
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I hold a cup of wisdom, but there is nothing within. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Wrong. It's a category that includes legal and illegal drugs. Alcohol and cocaine are both recreational drugs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_drug_use
| Quote: | | Recreational drug use is the use of a drug (legal, controlled, or illegal) with the primary intention to alter the state of consciousness (through alteration of the central nervous system) in order to recreate positive emotions and feelings. The popular concept of this phenomenon puts it closer to a social behaviour that many places around the world tolerate rather than to serious medical conditions such as self-medication. When a substance enters the user's body, it brings on a pleasurable intoxicating effect; in terms of psychoactive drugs, such as cannabis or MDMA, this is often referred to as a "high". |
You may not like the term, but it's a widely accepted one. In this context, it also serves as a useful differentiation from "performance enhancing" drugs, many of which may also be illegal.
Woods, as we know by now, plenty of players have managed to pursue recreational drug habits (not only in November and December, but during the season proper) and still pulled their weight on the training track and on match day.
Turning up to training in an unfit state is a club discipline issue (on par with eating too many hamburgers), so completely unrelated to what we're talking about here. The question is whether players should be punished by the AFL for taking recreational drugs in their own time.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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yin-YANG
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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| Lazza wrote: | To extend this perfect logic.
Society has a problem with drugs
Umpires are part of society.
Is this why the umpiring has been bloody aweful over the past few years? |
Extending it further maybe it is society that has problems and drugs are used by some as their solution.
The key thing is it is 'their' decision why should i be worried by what others take as part of the escapist and or recreation activity etc - if you do no harm to others - why should others or governments care? There's no doubt our PM has been smoking a lot of Mary Jane - he comes up with some crack-pot ideas every now and then to prove it 
Of course performance enhancing drugs is another story that is cheating!
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Love us or Hate us... we are Collingwood - you can't ignore the Mighty Magpies!!! |
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Neil Appleby
Joined: 11 Feb 1998
Location: Melbourne
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| Woods wrote: | | Neil Appleby wrote: | I disagree with most here in Nick's on footballers and illicit drug use. Yes, I know some drugs are no more and possibly less harmful than alcohol, but the facts remain that alcohol is legal and illicit drugs are not. That being the case I think the policy should be changed.
During Season and including pre-season:
1 Strike - club informed, player suspended for 4 weeks
2 Strikes - player sacked.
I don't care what players do over their summer break and don't think there should be testing during the off-season, but once they return to training there should be zero tolerance. I know they are young, highly spirited, risk takers, but they are also highly trained, elite athletes on enormous salaries. No drugs for 10 months of the year is the price they pay for stardom. |
You can't give the players two months a year to commit criminal acts (and let's be real here - that's what possessing/using illegal drugs is). By that standard your giving them the green light to rape and murder as well - as long as they don't get caught and don't do it during the footy season.
There's also the matters raised by the Australian Crime Commission report released at the time the Essendon saga began. It made it clear that the motives of organised crime to make money out of sport were to Infiltrate, Associate, and Manipulate sports people.
For example: a Collingwood player in the off season falls in with a couple of friendly guys while on holiday, takes drugs with them. Later during the season these 'friends' make contact and reveal themselves as match fixers. They show the pics/video they took of him using drugs. They tell him to play dead next weekend or the incriminating evidence goes on YouTube, or to the media or the AFL. There are many such scenarios possible.
No, if you are going to be a professional sports person there can be no truck with drug use. Never. |
I usually agree with your well-made arguments but not this time. Your analogy of drug taking to rape and murder is nonsensical. I knew David would respond as he has; he always does on this particular issue, but I'm just trying to be realistic.
I'm not a young man and so find this growing craze of drug taking perplexing in the extreme. I don't think we can have a 12 month zero drug taking policy and expect players will abide by it; it's too much of an imposition. Prohibition anyone? That worked well.
On holidays, I couldn't care less what players do. Give the guys a break. Once they report back to training in November, then they abide by the rules. It's a compromise and one that may not work, but it's better than the system we now have that is being systematically rorted by players. The 3 Strikes policy is not working and needs to be changed.
_________________
After the epic draw comes the decisive knockout!
Collingwood rules the world again and Mick Malthouse fulfils his destiny with the twenty ten premiership and can you hear the people sing! |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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i'm with you on this one neil.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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Cam
Nick's BB Member #166
Joined: 10 May 2002
Location: Springvale
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Wellingham nearly lost his career over drink driving. Illegal, and some would say recreational for some.
Ditto Shaw in the ute, ditto Chad Morrison on a scooter, ditto Cameron Cloke on the eastern doing 144 kmh.
Didak, lying to club. Not illegal, recreational for some.
Marley Williams, hitting a guy in possible self defence. Illegal, and some would say recreational for some.
Dayne Beams, sexual antics. Possibly illegal, and some would say recreational for some.
Illegal is illegal for a reason. Risky, dangerous, life-threatening, mind-altering are four adjectives. I'm not sure why drink driving is considered more of a crime than doing 'party' drugs.
Any mind altering substance surely puts our most valuable commodities, our players, in a higher risk category than if they didn't have it. We scream when our medical staff put a guy back on when he's come off with an injury, only for it to get worse and end his season, and that's just doing his job. But some people are content for possible side effects like paranoia and addiction to creep in ala Lumumba [allegedly]?
Maybe if players put their money into real estate, holidays and investments [and expensive toys] they might not end up so destitute like many who go through this process. Or just get married and divorced during their AFL career.. that will take care of a heap of cash 
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Get back on top. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Keep the drugs policy as it is. There are some alarmists out there getting too much traction.The AFLPA needs to get on the front foot here.
The Policy was developed by a wide range of people including health professionals, drug and alcohol physicians who use worlds best practice regarding harm minimisation & player welfare issues.
Players are not slaves.
Alcohol is the single biggest "drug" worry in Australia now not illicit drugs. The negative consequences of alcohol far exceed those of so called illicit drugs every day & cost this country gazillions, cost families & cause ruin much more so than do illicit drugs.
The Emergency Department I work 3 days a week in is loaded with alcohol related issues which include: assault, domestic violence, alcohol dependence, brain atrophy & brain damage, alcoholic hallucinosis, alcohol withdrawal, cirrhosis of the liver, cardiac issues, depression, impotence, cardiac myopathy, gastritis, anaemia to name a few of the top of my head.
The police radio that I hear 2 days a week when working with police has a high rate of alcohol related call outs.
When the AFL & footy clubs stop alcohol advertising & sponsorship then they might have an iota of credibility when dealing with policy related to drugs.
Now come on all of us, rise up and join me in the Nicks Temperance & Sobriety league.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Neil Appleby
Joined: 11 Feb 1998
Location: Melbourne
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I don't really care what the players do in the privacy of their own homes. Now there's a phrase that I've been hit over the head with all my life!
I think we all know that players take drugs in their off time. Gary Pert said it was a 'volcanic' problem a few years back and he wouldn't have just made that up. I don't care if Travis Cloke drinks at home, or smokes weed or dresses in fishnet stockings. None of my business any of that. So long as he performs to his utmost I'm happy.
When it potentially influences other people, when behind the wheel of a car, or when behaving dangerously in public, then it's a different matter. Clubs invest hundreds of thousands of dollars in each of their players and want to protect their investment whilst winning matches and hopefully, premierships.
And so we need to come up with a solution that works for all parties. Obviously, the current solution was one put forward by the AFLPA. It was signed off by the clubs, sure, but it has been systemically rorted. We know that two Collingwood players self-reported two years ago. We know that there are players on two strikes. One or more may play for Collingwood and they may not. The players, or some players more accurately, have milked the system. So it's time for the system to change.
All the drug counselling in the world will not prevent people from getting shit faced and jumping off balconies. It will not prevent players from risky behaviour.
The best we can do is come up with a plan that may bring about the best outcome for all concerned realistically. As for ASADA and clubs testing players when on holidays, I think that is looking for trouble. Do the hair samples beginning in December.
_________________
After the epic draw comes the decisive knockout!
Collingwood rules the world again and Mick Malthouse fulfils his destiny with the twenty ten premiership and can you hear the people sing! |
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