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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| You like the praise that was provided from Clark and Frawley about our list management and the way we're focusing on building a great side rather than thinking about the present moment. |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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I am of a slightly different view to some but can see points from both sides.
First everyone knows I'm an unabashed Beams fan.
Secondly I've been accused of being a Sidey basher but I like to think of it more like we all have our fav players and those we find disappointing or we have higher expectations of.
Now elite is a word to often thrown around for mine.
Pendles Swanny are (or have been) elite. I gauge elite as consistent match turning, winning or impacting performances on a weekly or close to it basis.
Beams by that definition isn't elite nor is Sidey.
Both are very good players and would be welcome in any 22 in the comp IMO
Sidey being a pick 7 (by memory and I'm too lazy to go look atm) you would have higher expectations than Beams at 29 (again to lazy to check)
If you compare there first 100 games there stats are very telling. Both have had extremely good careers thus far.
Beams edges Sidey on all bar a couple of stats (uncontested possessions, 1%ers)
Beams leads on contested footy, goals, inside 50's goal assists, clearances
Both are pretty even in tackles and other stats.
But they play different roles within the team thus it's not fair to compare them totally.
As for Beams performances in Gf's I know for certain he isn't happy with them and nor should he. He didn't deliver to the expected standard and that is a asterisk on his resume he needs to fix.
Personally I said before it's a win win at the moment DeGoey looks the goods, Crisp has been a huge find and if Levi shows the same form as last year then I think we win on the deal.
Brisbane paid what they believed was market value for him and depending on what paper you read it's somewhere between $750-$900k a year.
That to me is elite money I'm happy for him on a personal level but I'm glad we didn't pay him that sort of money.
That level of salary cap going to one player who isn't elite (IMO) costs you long term in keeping potential (insert carlscum as an example here)
Either way it's a done deal now so I hope for the best going forward for the new pies players |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| September Zeros wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | Disagree with practically all of the above. Brisbane didn't overpay, they paid evens. A fair price for a genuine A-grade player. They paid a top 10 pick, plus an early second round pick (effectively) and that wasn't quite enough so they threw in a fringe player as a sealer. That left them happy, and left us happy. that's a good trade for all concerned.
Now, as it happens, our fringe player (Crisp) turned out to be a beauty. He could just as easily have been a depth player or a list clogger. During the pre-season, remember, no-one even knew if he would be good enough to get a senior game.
As it turns out, the trade has been good for us, possibly a fantastic trade if DeG comes on as we all expect and if Greenwood can show that last year's form was no flash in the pan. But you can't look back at a stoke of very good luck in the trade lottery and retrospectively declare it a masterpiece. It was a fair trade and we happened to get a very fortunate result from it. No more and no less. |
Thank you tannin for some reasoning.
I don't know how many times we have to go over it but we did not get three players for beams alone.
It was a five way trade in which we also lost lumumba and pick 67.
It complicated as he's listed as pick 86 but Brisbane from what I can research used pick 67 as part of an academy bidding system to secure this guy:
http://boundforglorynews.com/2014-draft-profile-josh-clayton/
Please do correct me if I'm wrong although it would be irrelevant. Point is they used it to secure a player and here's a little taster of a few handy pick 67's in both national and rookies drafts.
Matt de Boer (FRE) Pick No.19 in 2008 Rookie Draft (115 games)
Jeff Garlett (MEL) Pick No.6 in 2008 Rookie Draft (107 games)
James Podsiadly (ADEL) Pick No.50 in 2009 Rookie Draft (104 games)
Jarryd Blair (COLL) Pick No.27 in 2008 Rookie Draft (102 games)
Tom Rockliff (BL) Pick No.5 in 2009 Pre-Season Draft (101 games)
Ben Howlett (ESS) Pick No.30 in 2009 Rookie Draft (97 games)
Luke Breust (HAW) Pick No.47 in 2008 Rookie Draft (91 games)
Mike Pyke (SYD) Pick No.57 in 2008 Rookie Draft (90 games)
Michael Barlow (FRE) Pick No.8 in 2009 Rookie Draft (90 games)
Patrick McGinnity (WCE) Pick No.7 in 2008 Pre-Season Draft (81 games)
Stewart Crameri (WB) Pick No.43 in 2009 Rookie Draft (79 games)
Clancee Pearce (FRE) Pick No.48 in 2008 Rookie Draft (78 games)
We gave up two premiership players one of which was elite.
To break even on this trade from a club perspective one of DeGoey, Greenwood and Crisp needs to become elite and another of them best 22. This has not happened yet.
To win the trade v Brisbane at least one needs to become elite. This also has not happened yet.
If you want to include varcoe (and we probably should as he was part of the trade) then we have a little more wiggle room to take bragging rights (just a little as we know he is a little hot and cold)
But ask me the question of whether we won this trade in 5 yrs. Not now when we really don't have a clue how it will all pan out.
So far it's promising but spare me the we won the trade outright crap because to date we simply have not. |
Not sure what the quibbling is about? Put simply, in return for Beams we got pick 5 (used to get De Goey), pick 23 (traded to North with our pick 67 for Greenwood), plus Crisp from the Lions. The Varcoe trade was a 3-way deal, resulting in Lumumba going to the Dees and Clark going to the Cats.
We are already miles ahead on the first deal and streaks ahead on the second. |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Best part of it is the lions thought they got the best part of the deal, and yet just have a look at steak knives performance yesterday! He's a beauty on his own. And-he wants to be here! Love your work Crisp, what a find.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Jezza wrote: | Crisp's unexpected but great form this year has really tipped the balance of the trade in our favour substantially especially if De Goey becomes a great player for us and Levi replicates the form he demonstrated last year with North Melbourne with us this year when he recovers from a fractured ankle.
This topic actually arose on Triple M pre-match yesterday when I was listening to it in the car on the way to the MCG. Brian Taylor, Danny Frawley and Jay Clark (Herald Sun journalist) were discussing this trade. Clark and Frawley believed that Collingwood were the winners out of the trade especially with Crisp's emergence this year but BT was adamant that there's a long way to go to determine who wins the trade and even going as far as saying that Beams' "career hasn't started yet" which is a ridiculous statement to make to be honest.
However I did agree with BT overall however that there's still a fair way to go to determine who wins the trade but assuming all players involved in the trade including pick 67 for Brisbane all live up to their expectations then I think Collingwood will be the overall winners in the end. I liked the praise that was provided from Clark and Frawley about our list management and the way we're focusing on building a great side rather than thinking about the present moment. |
This trade shapes a lot like Judd to Carlton. If they'd managed to secure that elusive flag on the back of the trade Blues supporters would still be crowing about how good a deal it was but if you look at the respective sides now, I'm pretty confident that WCEs supporters would say that Kennedy and Masten (pick 3) go a long way to easing the pain of losing Judd. Notte (pick 20) didn't come on so that does deminish the gains to the WCEs.
Maybe in 10 years time we'll actually know who won the trade. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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[quote="RudeBoy] Not sure what the quibbling is about? Put simply, in return for Beams we got pick 5 (used to get De Goey), pick 23 (traded to North with our pick 67 for Greenwood), plus Crisp from the Lions. The Varcoe trade was a 3-way deal, resulting in Lumumba going to the Dees and Clark going to the Cats.
We are already miles ahead on the first deal and streaks ahead on the second.[/quote]
I always take the view that we got De Goey for Beams. The sweeteners allowed us to grab Greenwood and Crisp which effectively means they replaced the 39th and 40th players on our list or say Marty Clarke and Quinton Lynch. At the same time allowing us to retain our other picks to grab Moore, Maynard and Goodyear. Overall our squad improved on the back of that. |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | Not sure what the quibbling is about? |
Oh, I think we are all on the same page here, Rudeboy, just chewing the fat a bit.
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οΏ½Let's eat Grandma.οΏ½ Commas save lives! |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| Tannin wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | Not sure what the quibbling is about? |
Oh, I think we are all on the same page here, Rudeboy, just chewing the fat a bit. |
Yes mainly me speaking before thinking.
But it's the discussion that helps me get to my conclusions.
Crisp once again yesterday edged us further ahead in this trade.
All my ramblings aside time will still be the decider for me. We still lost a very good footballer and have so far replaced him with three promising ones.
If crisp can maintain yesterday's form over the journey then I will concede on this.
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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melliot
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Location: Bendigo
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Considering Beams makes the top 50 players (about 792 players on AFL lists in total) from most experts, that probably statistically makes him considered an "elite player" (top 6%).
It's very early, but I have a high degree of confidence DeGoey will be better though. We just have to wait a few years.
Crisp and Greenwood will be solid B graders for us. But Crisp running ability and good left foot kicks, means he has weapons that hurt.
I don't understand the knock on Crisp's kicking???? It has been anything but poor or average. It has been a weapon. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| melliot wrote: | Considering Beams makes the top 50 players (about 792 players on AFL lists in total) from most experts, that probably statistically makes him considered an "elite player" (top 6%).
It's very early, but I have a high degree of confidence DeGoey will be better though. We just have to wait a few years.
Crisp and Greenwood will be solid B graders for us. But Crisp running ability and good left foot kicks, means he has weapons that hurt.
I don't understand the knock on Crisp's kicking???? It has been anything but poor or average. It has been a weapon. |
Agree, very good user on evidence and the added bonus of being able to roost it 50+ meters. |
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