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Boogie Knights
Joined: 18 Sep 2015
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| It's hard to argue with any of those views put forward, although I see one glaring omission... Darcy's Dad was a pretty reasonable footballer for the Pies... I'd have him in my top 10 (under any criteria for players I've seen play). |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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Greening doesn't get talked about often enough for his ability nor for the loss to football he was.
His stats make for unbelievable reading and his highlights are just amazing. This is a guy who got over 50 possessions in a game (which only a handful of VFL/AFL footballers have managed) as well as 45+ on another couple of occasions (as well as kicking 6 goals in one of those matches) and whose high marking separated him from the other high possession midfielders of the time. And this is in his first 100 games when he was just 22.
If he played for another club more would be made of him and what he may have been and what his loss cost his side. Because he played for us he's become a footnote of sorts and he isn't classed as one of the games tragic stories outside of Collingwood, which of course he was to anyone who appreciates champion footballers.
My old man is a Geelong supporter but still rates Greening as one of the best players he saw and he only saw him a handful of times. He reckons Greening dominated every time he saw him play Geelong and he thinks he was years ahead of his time with his skill and athleticism. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| What makes you say that? |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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Here's my list:
1 Greening
2 Daicos
3 Carman
4 Bucks
5 Thompson
6 Pendles
7 Swanny
8 Millane
9 McKenna
10 Brown |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Flashman wrote: | Greening doesn't get talked about often enough for his ability nor for the loss to football he was.
His stats make for unbelievable reading and his highlights are just amazing. This is a guy who got over 50 possessions in a game (which only a handful of VFL/AFL footballers have managed) as well as 45+ on another couple of occasions (as well as kicking 6 goals in one of those matches) and whose high marking separated him from the other high possession midfielders of the time. And this is in his first 100 games when he was just 22.
If he played for another club more would be made of him and what he may have been and what his loss cost his side. Because he played for us he's become a footnote of sorts and he isn't classed as one of the games tragic stories outside of Collingwood, which of course he was to anyone who appreciates champion footballers.
My old man is a Geelong supporter but still rates Greening as one of the best players he saw and he only saw him a handful of times. He reckons Greening dominated every time he saw him play Geelong and he thinks he was years ahead of his time with his skill and athleticism. |
Flashman, there is no doubt that Greening was one of the most talented footballers of the last 50 years and I don't disagree with anything you say. I don't really understand how Shaw left him out of his top 10 because he can't have grown up in Reservoir and not seen the Great Man play (on the TV, even if he never went to the ground).
I would, though, caution against taking too much from the disposal stats in individual games of that era. In those days, there were generally a couple of good teams and a lot of uncompetitive dross. This made for generally enjoyable viewing on a Saturday afternoon if you were a Collingwood supporter but it also meant that there were lots of non-contests. To put flesh on these bones, another Collingwood great of that era has career stats that make Swannie look like he can't get to the fall of the ball often enough: http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/W/Wayne_Richardson.html (for the statistical record of a genuinely good day's work by the best Collingwood rover I saw before Scott Russell, see http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1971/030419710614.html - his opponent that day was "Gags" Gallagher, who roved in about 4 Grand Finals for Carlton but managed 8 touches to Wayne's 45, including 5 goals, 1 behind, that day).
Thus, when we think back to those days, most of us remember the performances of our great players against the top teams. That is why, eg, the old Collingwood versus Carlton/Richmond rivalries were so special - in those days, most of the best players in the competition were concentrated with a few clubs.
Certainly, Greening was at his brilliant best in 1971 when he played the game against Geelong you mentioned, as he was against Geelong and South Melbourne in 1972 when he got 91 disposals and kicked 10 goals in 2 weeks. But South won 2 and lost 20 in 1972 - and the stats will show that Thompson and Wayne Richardson took them apart completely in the return match that season, without Johnny (even if neither got the 45 touches, those of us who were there joked about them having leather-poisoning after the game). And Geelong won 12 games out of 44 in 1971 and 1972 (including managing to be one of South Melbourne's 2 1972 scalps). I can also remember, eg, a game at Arden St when Peter McKenna was injured (calamity of calamities!!!), so Robert Dean played FF. Dean, of course, usually took up position on the opposite wing from Greening but that day he kicked 6 or 7 goals at FF because there was just so much mid-field supply.
Greening's "big stat" games were obviously great performances in their own way - but for sheer brilliance and impact, I don't think of any of them as rivalling his 1969 display against Carlton. First, Carlton were then the reigning premiers (and were close to the best team of 1969, although they lost the GF to a Richmond that came very good at the end of the season - and certainly the best-performed team in the competition from 1968 to 1972). Secondly, it was away from Victoria Park - and there was a massive difference between a home Collingwood-Carlton game and an away one. Thirdly, he was only 18!
7 goals 3, ruck-roving at 18 years against the best team of the age, on their home ground! Imagine how the media would write that up if Treloar turned out and did it against Hawthorn in round 23 playing on Jordan Lewis.
Finally - and this comes with a parental guidance warning - if you haven't seen him play a full game but would like to, there is a DVD of the 1970 GF. The second half is not for the faint-hearted but it is, at least, intact footage of an entire Collingwood game. It wasn't Johnny's greatest day - but at least you can see his play in context. |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | Greening doesn't get talked about often enough for his ability nor for the loss to football he was.
His stats make for unbelievable reading and his highlights are just amazing. This is a guy who got over 50 possessions in a game (which only a handful of VFL/AFL footballers have managed) as well as 45+ on another couple of occasions (as well as kicking 6 goals in one of those matches) and whose high marking separated him from the other high possession midfielders of the time. And this is in his first 100 games when he was just 22.
If he played for another club more would be made of him and what he may have been and what his loss cost his side. Because he played for us he's become a footnote of sorts and he isn't classed as one of the games tragic stories outside of Collingwood, which of course he was to anyone who appreciates champion footballers.
My old man is a Geelong supporter but still rates Greening as one of the best players he saw and he only saw him a handful of times. He reckons Greening dominated every time he saw him play Geelong and he thinks he was years ahead of his time with his skill and athleticism. |
Flashman, there is no doubt that Greening was one of the most talented footballers of the last 50 years and I don't disagree with anything you say. I don't really understand how Shaw left him out of his top 10 because he can't have grown up in Reservoir and not seen the Great Man play (on the TV, even if he never went to the ground).
I would, though, caution against taking too much from the disposal stats in individual games of that era. In those days, there were generally a couple of good teams and a lot of uncompetitive dross. This made for generally enjoyable viewing on a Saturday afternoon if you were a Collingwood supporter but it also meant that there were lots of non-contests. To put flesh on these bones, another Collingwood great of that era has career stats that make Swannie look like he can't get to the fall of the ball often enough: http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/W/Wayne_Richardson.html (for the statistical record of a genuinely good day's work by the best Collingwood rover I saw before Scott Russell, see http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1971/030419710614.html - his opponent that day was "Gags" Gallagher, who roved in about 4 Grand Finals for Carlton but managed 8 touches to Wayne's 45, including 5 goals, 1 behind, that day).
Thus, when we think back to those days, most of us remember the performances of our great players against the top teams. That is why, eg, the old Collingwood versus Carlton/Richmond rivalries were so special - in those days, most of the best players in the competition were concentrated with a few clubs.
Certainly, Greening was at his brilliant best in 1971 when he played the game against Geelong you mentioned, as he was against Geelong and South Melbourne in 1972 when he got 91 disposals and kicked 10 goals in 2 weeks. But South won 2 and lost 20 in 1972 - and the stats will show that Thompson and Wayne Richardson took them apart completely in the return match that season, without Johnny (even if neither got the 45 touches, those of us who were there joked about them having leather-poisoning after the game). And Geelong won 12 games out of 44 in 1971 and 1972 (including managing to be one of South Melbourne's 2 1972 scalps). I can also remember, eg, a game at Arden St when Peter McKenna was injured (calamity of calamities!!!), so Robert Dean played FF. Dean, of course, usually took up position on the opposite wing from Greening but that day he kicked 6 or 7 goals at FF because there was just so much mid-field supply.
Greening's "big stat" games were obviously great performances in their own way - but for sheer brilliance and impact, I don't think of any of them as rivalling his 1969 display against Carlton. First, Carlton were then the reigning premiers (and were close to the best team of 1969, although they lost the GF to a Richmond that came very good at the end of the season - and certainly the best-performed team in the competition from 1968 to 1972). Secondly, it was away from Victoria Park - and there was a massive difference between a home Collingwood-Carlton game and an away one. Thirdly, he was only 18!
7 goals 3, ruck-roving at 18 years against the best team of the age, on their home ground! Imagine how the media would write that up if Treloar turned out and did it against Hawthorn in round 23 playing on Jordan Lewis.
Finally - and this comes with a parental guidance warning - if you haven't seen him play a full game but would like to, there is a DVD of the 1970 GF. The second half is not for the faint-hearted but it is, at least, intact footage of an entire Collingwood game. It wasn't Johnny's greatest day - but at least you can see his play in context. |
Good post and you make some very good points especially when taking into account quality of opposition. Growing up in Geelongs zone as a kid I can certainly remember them being league battlers for a long time which does add context to Greenings huge games. That said though 50 possessions is still a massive effort even if you're playing Manangatang reserves imo.
Stats aside from the highlights you can clearly see Greening had exceptional speed, courage, ball handling and possibly the best balance I've seen from a Collingwood player plus some of his hangers are just poetry in motion.
As for 1970, I wasn't born then but I still won't watch it. I watched both 1977 GF's once and I put myself in a shitty mood for the rest of the day watching those 30 years after the fact and I don't know how I'd handle watching bastards like Nicholls, Walls, Jackson and Hopkins stitching us up especially when we should never have lost it. |
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The_Staunton 
Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart
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When is someone going to do the least talented 10?
(Ducks for cover)
_________________
We just got nutted at the clearances... |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| Flashman wrote: | Greening doesn't get talked about often enough for his ability nor for the loss to football he was.
His stats make for unbelievable reading and his highlights are just amazing. This is a guy who got over 50 possessions in a game (which only a handful of VFL/AFL footballers have managed) as well as 45+ on another couple of occasions (as well as kicking 6 goals in one of those matches) and whose high marking separated him from the other high possession midfielders of the time. And this is in his first 100 games when he was just 22.
If he played for another club more would be made of him and what he may have been and what his loss cost his side. Because he played for us he's become a footnote of sorts and he isn't classed as one of the games tragic stories outside of Collingwood, which of course he was to anyone who appreciates champion footballers.
My old man is a Geelong supporter but still rates Greening as one of the best players he saw and he only saw him a handful of times. He reckons Greening dominated every time he saw him play Geelong and he thinks he was years ahead of his time with his skill and athleticism. |
I don't thing Greening is even recognised enough at our club. That's probably because he played before Eddie was old enough to follow the Pies. It still annoys me that we don't celebrate the most brilliant player we ever had, by having a a trophy or medal named in his honour. I'd be happy to re-name our best player award to the Copeland/Greening Medal. |
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thompsoc
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| The_Staunton wrote: | When is someone going to do the least talented 10?
(Ducks for cover) |
go back a page or 2 and see mine.
_________________
we don't eat our own at collingwood we just allow them to foul our nest. |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| thompsoc wrote: | My picks
Guy Richards
Billy Morrison
Derek Shaw
Jason Wild
Stephen Paterson
Luke Goddern
Tristain Walker
Danny Roach
Luke Shackleton
Kent Butcher
Sorry I meant the 10 worse! |
make it a worse 11 because you forgot one... shane woewodin... |
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thompsoc
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | thompsoc wrote: | My picks
Guy Richards
Billy Morrison
Derek Shaw
Jason Wild
Stephen Paterson
Luke Goddern
Tristain Walker
Danny Roach
Luke Shackleton
Kent Butcher
Sorry I meant the 10 worse! |
make it a worse 11 because you forgot one... shane woewodin... |
Yes Shane Woewoeful was one of a kind.
Won a Brownlow and then fell off a cliff and landed in our lap.
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we don't eat our own at collingwood we just allow them to foul our nest. |
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Mossi
Joined: 20 May 2002
Location: Vittorio Veneto TV Italy
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| Pies4shaw wrote: |
Finally - if you haven't seen him play a full game but would like to, there is a DVD of the 1970 GF. The second half is not for the faint-hearted but it is, at least, intact footage of an entire Collingwood game. It wasn't Johnny's greatest day - but at least you can see his play in context. |
I have never watched a replay of that game and won't, On John Greening In that game unfortunately for us being a 20 year old he suffered from cramps in the final quarter and was one of the reasons Carlscum where able to win the battle in the midfield. If you can get a copy of the Second Semi-Final against the same mob two weeks prior to that. You will see how he tore them apart! I may be biased but he was the best Collingwood player I have seen! He was just such an athlete with no fear or hesitation and just got to places you were left you wondering, how? Like all players he did have quiet games but when he was on which was about every second game, it was a show! |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| It'd certainly be great to see the 1970 second-semi again but I'm not aware of any film of it now being available? I understand people's decision not to watch the losing GFs but a few years ago I gave in and got them because they're about the only coherent footage of my first footballing heroes. |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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I won't name him but a mate of mine is a life member at the Saints. They called Jim Odea "Boo". Jeans told him to take him out before the game. "Just king hit him" ODea said "I can't hit a bloke for no reason who isn't lookinf' Jeans said make him loo. So after Greening kicked the ball he ran behind a nd yelled boo. greening looked around was decked.Jeans told him that if he was implicated he would deny it.
The loss of Greening had far reaching consequences for us. With Ggreening on the wing we not have drawn the 77 grand final. We would not have had stan Alves carving us up. We would not lost in 1979 and maybe not 81. We probably would have made a few Grand finals as well. Put it this way. If a 30 year old Greening was still playing when Daicos came on the scene it would have been frightening and if he was kicking to Carmen in 77 he would have kicked 100 goals. Every accolade made to Jeans as a fair man and good copper made me spew. That the "family" club took him on speaks volumes of their veneer of goodness whilst dealing with the devil.
Greening would also have won a few Brownlow although he might have cost Thommo his in the year he won it.
Never forgive that shit stain of a club and whilst it is impolite to talk ill of the dead i am prepared to make an exception with Jeans.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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| ronrat wrote: | I won't name him but a mate of mine is a life member at the Saints. They called Jim Odea "Boo". Jeans told him to take him out before the game. "Just king hit him" ODea said "I can't hit a bloke for no reason who isn't lookinf' Jeans said make him loo. So after Greening kicked the ball he ran behind a nd yelled boo. greening looked around was decked.Jeans told him that if he was implicated he would deny it.
The loss of Greening had far reaching consequences for us. With Ggreening on the wing we not have drawn the 77 grand final. We would not have had stan Alves carving us up. We would not lost in 1979 and maybe not 81. We probably would have made a few Grand finals as well. Put it this way. If a 30 year old Greening was still playing when Daicos came on the scene it would have been frightening and if he was kicking to Carmen in 77 he would have kicked 100 goals. Every accolade made to Jeans as a fair man and good copper made me spew. That the "family" club took him on speaks volumes of their veneer of goodness whilst dealing with the devil.
Greening would also have won a few Brownlow although he might have cost Thommo his in the year he won it.
Never forgive that shit stain of a club and whilst it is impolite to talk ill of the dead i am prepared to make an exception with Jeans. |
I've never liked Jeans either.
You look at the sides he coached and there were always dirty sniping bastards like O'Dea, Ditterich, Sarau, Cowboy Neale, Dipierdomenico, Matthews and Brereton running around for them.
If you think back to the 1971 and 83 GF's and you'll see that Peter Hudson and Timmy Watson were both targeted physically by Cowboy Neale and Colin Robertson and when you factor that in with the Matthews-Bruns/Giles/Hunter incidents, the Dipper-Alan Stoneham elbow etc etc and you'll see the common denominator is that Alan Jeans was coaching the offending players in all of them.
Coincidence? I doubt it and even if they were all of the aforementioned were repeat, repeat offenders yet Jeans was only too happy to play them again and again. That makes him complicit at the minimum and if what your mate says is true it makes him every bit the thug, dog, criminal prick that O'Dea is |
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