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| How many Syrian refugees should Australia take? |
| None |
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52% |
[ 21 ] |
| A few hundred |
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2% |
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| A few thousand |
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5% |
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| Over ten thousand |
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5% |
[ 2 ] |
| As many as possible |
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35% |
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| Total Votes : 40 |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | Assuming it's true, and this stuff can be misreported, then in a million arrivals from disordered and distressed backgrounds - heck, in a million people from anywhere - you're going to get some aberrant behaviour. I guess the question is whether there is recurrence. The big issue is the identity crisis and the risk of violence that will follow Merkel's policy frolic, not to mention the crisis she has set off across a Europe that was already fracturing, and the succour she has given to those makers of dead children, the people smugglers.
Australia's hardline policy on managing asylum/seekers/illegal migrants is increasingly cited as exemplary across Europe and in mainstream politics in Britain. |
^ But, and I've made this point before, that equation is trading the possibility of harm with real-life actual ongoing harm. It's not an exaggeration, for instance, to equate what we're doing in detention centres with child abuse. The question is, do you sacrifice the well-being of a certain number of foreigners, potentially sacrifice the well-being of a similar number of locals, or try to find an alternative way that avoids causing substantial harm to anyone?
Whatever you think of Germany's laissez-faire refugee policy, the point stands that it's only one out of a large number of possible models for addressing this situation. That can be achieved so long as refugees don't come to be portrayed as inherently evil and dangerous opportunists, in which case the anti-humanist lock 'em up or lock 'em out response becomes attractive to a large percentage of the population. I fear that news stories like this - of genuinely concerning, but still unrepresentative acts of violence - really push things in that direction. |
In some measure I agree with that. The best available solution to the crisis in Europe is the establishment of safe havens in areas of the ME, backed by military force if necessary. This will require funding, and humanitarian aid on a large scale. We spend enough on foreign aid annually to do this, but if it means an increase, so be it. It is better than the risk of serious destabilisation of Western societies through a million unvetted arrivals, as we have seen in Germany, and better than giving sustenance to the vampires who manage the people smuggling business.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | The Japanese approach!
TOKYO - Japan accepted only 27 refugees last year and rejected almost all applications, officials said Saturday, as rights groups urged the government to allow more people in.
The country has long been nervous about an influx of refugees into its homogeneous society and has tightly restricted the number it accepts.
Of the thousands seeking refugee status, five were Syrian, only three of which were accepted -- a far cry from the massive influx of Syrians into Europe from the war-torn Middle East nation last year.
The justice ministry said it received a record 7,586 refugee applications in 2015, meaning more than 99 percent of requests were rejected.
Other accepted applicants included six from Afghanistan, three Ethiopians and three Sri Lankans
http://m.bangkokpost.com/news/836552?refer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.msn.com%2Fen-au%2Fnews%2Fworld |
We had something like that one time. It was known as the 'White Australia Policy'. |
Never forget the White Australia policy was instigated by the union movement to protect jobs.
So what would you call Japan's policy? |
Well, firstly, that's hardly the full story. Part of it was about south pacific sugar cane workers, yes, but a great deal of it was also about preserving a dominant white Anglo culture and race. I'm not intimately familiar with Japanese culture, but I presume they're exercising similar reasoning.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Morrigu, reading what the imam said, it is possible that he has been taken unfairly out of context. I actually read his subsequent statement rather positively. For an Imam to say that women should be allowed to dreess like that, and that those who do not accept it shoudl choose somewhere else to live is a rather positive thing. If all Imams spoke like that then we would probably not have a Muslim problem.
It looks a bit to me as though he was saying what many of us believe - the men in Koln were probably just doing what years of cultural upbringing told them was legitimate, reading signals they may not understand well. That doesn't make it legit, it just explains it. It does nothing to diminish the fact that German policymakers have been irresponsible and put their women citizens at risk.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
| Quote: | For decades, unions opposed
immigration and demanded
enforcement of the White
Australia Policy, in the belief
that cheap, foreign labour
hurt employment.
But the expanding economy
of the 1940s brought full
employment and the ACTU
driven by the foresight of
Albert Monk embraced the
ALPs populate or perish
program. Millions of post-war
migrants entered Australia
and by 1966 they made up
more than 30% of the
manufacturing workforce and
had begun changing
Australian life for the better. |
Page 4 ACTU 75th anniversary booklet.
http://www.actu.org.au/media/349399/actu-75th-anniversary-commemorative-booklet.pdf
I'm happy to get more facts about how it all started if you like.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: | Really unfortunately there are many men from African, middle eastern and even some eastern European countries who do think like that because it's what they were bought up with and programmed to believe.
That's why education of refugees on what their new host countries values are is vital. 65 years ago when Australia copped the wave of European migration, the value differences weren't that big even if the cultural ones were.
Now the refugees coming into western countries can come with vastly different moral values, which are a product of culture but are more of a problem than just cultural.
Open border advocates are just pie in the sky idealistic imbeciles if they can't see this. |
True - but they should be contained and restricted from imposing their medieval idealogy and actions on the citizens of the countries they have chosen to seek settlement in UNTIL they are educated on the values and social mores and laws of that country!
Their rights are no more important than the citizens of that country and if they can't learn and adapt - then they can just ......... fck off !!
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I heard they have a good rights. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
| Quote: | For decades, unions opposed
immigration and demanded
enforcement of the White
Australia Policy, in the belief
that cheap, foreign labour
hurt employment.
But the expanding economy
of the 1940s brought full
employment and the ACTU
driven by the foresight of
Albert Monk embraced the
ALPs populate or perish
program. Millions of post-war
migrants entered Australia
and by 1966 they made up
more than 30% of the
manufacturing workforce and
had begun changing
Australian life for the better. |
Page 4 ACTU 75th anniversary booklet.
http://www.actu.org.au/media/349399/actu-75th-anniversary-commemorative-booklet.pdf
I'm happy to get more facts about how it all started if you like. |
You have to love the bit about "changing Australian life for the better". Immigrants have changed it in many, many good ways, but in some respects the Australia of the 1930s was a fantastic place - a proud people with a rugged independent spirit, an egalitarian ethos, good working conditions, a broadly strong sense of community amd connectedness, high ideals of public service and a nation to build. Of course there were deficiencies, the most notable being the treatment of aboriginal people and a certain provincial sameness, which was bound to change in time. But this idea that the Australia of the 1930s was changed for the better by the support of the unions for immigration is a very strange bird call.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ Morrigu, reading what the imam said, it is possible that he has been taken unfairly out of context. I actually read his subsequent statement rather positively. For an Imam to say that women should be allowed to dreess like that, and that those who do not accept it shoudl choose somewhere else to live is a rather positive thing. If all Imams spoke like that then we would probably not have a Muslim problem.
It looks a bit to me as though he was saying what many of us believe - the men in Koln were probably just doing what years of cultural upbringing told them was legitimate, reading signals they may not understand well. That doesn't make it legit, it just explains it. It does nothing to diminish the fact that German policymakers have been irresponsible and put their women citizens at risk. |
You give him more credit than I am prepared to Mug - I think he only back peddled when he found himself in a storm and threatened with legal action
His initial thoughts and statements are to me far more damning. The twit in Australia who rambled on about uncovered meat in response to gang rapes by Muslim youths in Sydney - back peddled in a similar fashion - too little too late IMHO.
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Mugwump wrote: | [quote="stui magpie"]^
[quote]For decades, unions opposed
immigration and [b]demanded
enforcement of the White
Australia Policy,[/b] in the belief
that cheap, foreign labour
hurt employment.
But the expanding economy
of the 1940s brought full
employment and the ACTU
driven by the foresight of
Albert Monk embraced the
ALPs populate or perish
program. Millions of post-war
migrants entered Australia
and by 1966 they made up
more than 30% of the
manufacturing workforce and
had begun changing
Australian life for the better.[/quote]
Page 4 ACTU 75th anniversary booklet.
http://www.actu.org.au/media/349399/actu-75th-anniversary-commemorative-booklet.pdf
I'm happy to get more facts about how it all started if you like.[/quote]
You have to love the bit about "changing Australian life for the better". Immigrants have changed it in many, many good ways, but in some respects the Australia of the 1930s was a fantastic place - a proud people with a rugged independent spirit, an egalitarian ethos, good working conditions, a broadly strong sense of community amd connectedness, high ideals of public service and a nation to build. Of course there were deficiencies, the most notable being the treatment of aboriginal people and a certain provincial sameness, which was bound to change in time. But this idea that the Australia of the 1930s was changed for the better by the support of the unions for immigration is a very strange bird call. |
That is quite a lot. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Morrigu wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ Morrigu, reading what the imam said, it is possible that he has been taken unfairly out of context. I actually read his subsequent statement rather positively. For an Imam to say that women should be allowed to dreess like that, and that those who do not accept it shoudl choose somewhere else to live is a rather positive thing. If all Imams spoke like that then we would probably not have a Muslim problem.
It looks a bit to me as though he was saying what many of us believe - the men in Koln were probably just doing what years of cultural upbringing told them was legitimate, reading signals they may not understand well. That doesn't make it legit, it just explains it. It does nothing to diminish the fact that German policymakers have been irresponsible and put their women citizens at risk. |
You give him more credit than I am prepared to Mug - I think he only back peddled when he found himself in a storm and threatened with legal action
His initial thoughts and statements are to me far more damning. The twit in Australia who rambled on about uncovered meat in response to gang rapes by Muslim youths in Sydney - back peddled in a similar fashion - too little too late IMHO. |
Yeah, fair enough... But at least he rowed back pretty strongly. Credit for retreating with style.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
| Quote: | For decades, unions opposed
immigration and demanded
enforcement of the White
Australia Policy, in the belief
that cheap, foreign labour
hurt employment.
But the expanding economy
of the 1940s brought full
employment and the ACTU
driven by the foresight of
Albert Monk embraced the
ALPs populate or perish
program. Millions of post-war
migrants entered Australia
and by 1966 they made up
more than 30% of the
manufacturing workforce and
had begun changing
Australian life for the better. |
Page 4 ACTU 75th anniversary booklet.
http://www.actu.org.au/media/349399/actu-75th-anniversary-commemorative-booklet.pdf
I'm happy to get more facts about how it all started if you like. |
I'm not questioning that history, just pointing out that it was a policy conservatives and nationalists happily acceded to. It was such an established position in Australian culture that even John Curtin was still singing its praises in the 1940s (and not in 'Labor' terms but nationalistic ones).
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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I just love the grotesque immorality of willfully contributing to destabilising and wrecking countries, and bastardising their politics and economies for decades on end, and instead of noting the mass, absolutely mass suffering and death caused by that, jumping up and down about the problems which result at the other end and are eminently manageable.
Piles and piles and piles of dead bodies and horrific suffering actively contributed to over that side, and ineffective education and policing over that side resulting in some menace and discomfort.
A mountain range of wilful evil versus a small hill of difficulties and threats.
I just find the ignorance an act of moral peasantry. Now, only now dumbf$&$cks have an opinion on these things. Where the hell was everyone when this mountain range of death and horror was being built?
Disgraceful. Just typically disgraceful moral peasantry. There *are no* disqualified human lives that deserve to be burned upon a trash heap like the native populations of old. Yet that is *exactly* what we have happily contributed to for decades in these countries.
So, you've got grotesque immorality preceding this flow of human suffering.
Now, we're getting the same justifications as were made against the native "savages" to let them rot and die away.
However, this time the billions of the fuc%&ers just won't die. The repercussions of decades of horrific amorality and death, and the new genocidal arguments dressed up in "the savages are raping us" talk, won't work.
The new social cleansing and genocidal talk, willfully ignorant of decades of mass death and destruction to stabilise "our" oil supply, capped off with that high point of human evil, Iraq, is repulsive.
You'll be apologising for it soon when the statistically minor problems versus the massive mountain range of horrific death and suffering become so clear that not even rape panic talk can cover it.
Carry on in your very, very little, very conveniently ignorant, rape panic and cleansing talk.
Or, alternatively, pay your moral way by helping remedy the economic strangulation and bastardisation of that whole region on the basis of fossil fuels *we don't need to depend upon anymore*.
If you don't want to help people directly whose suffering and death you willfully contributed to historically, help them indirectly by giving them a functioning economy. Don't beg for their extermination like pests, and hide social and ethnic cleansing talk behind rape panic like the settlers of old.
Take responsibility and do something the fu$&ck about it by helping transition the world economy off fossil fuels so those people have an end game of a functioning economy, on which they can build functioning societies in their traditional lands.
The current mindset is fast becoming genocidal in the most evil of ways.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Last edited by pietillidie on Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:41 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Narration continues. . . |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | You have to love the bit about "changing Australian life for the better". Immigrants have changed it in many, many good ways, but in some respects the Australia of the 1930s was a fantastic place - a proud people with a rugged independent spirit, an egalitarian ethos, good working conditions, a broadly strong sense of community amd connectedness, high ideals of public service and a nation to build. Of course there were deficiencies, the most notable being the treatment of aboriginal people and a certain provincial sameness, which was bound to change in time. But this idea that the Australia of the 1930s was changed for the better by the support of the unions for immigration is a very strange bird call. |
Lol - a fantastic place? The bloody depression hit Australia harder than many countries. Outside the fairy tales, Australia was a bleeding horror show in the 1930s. And you weren't even there to sense the "community spirit" which comes with very low populations. That statement is almost as bad as the unions laying claim to supporting immigration.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | those makers of dead children, the people smugglers. |
Don't forget the 3T dollars in catastrophic interference your Aussie tax dollars helped go further.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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