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magpie1111
Joined: 23 Jun 2012
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| Maybe Goodes can turn him into Australian of the year |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | David did go onto a bit of a tangent there - though, he's right absolute free will is demonstrably false. It's really quite amazing how well and universally situation predicts crime. Male? 20s-30s? Poor? Ethnic minority? etc, etc... which just goes to show that us male model citizens are far better people than women model citizens  - his general point though is a fair one. What purpose do comments of absolute condemnation serve? And what does it say about the person making them?
Given how clearly, objectively wrong they are, absolute comments about any person's character make little sense to me. Any person is made of complex and contradicting characteristics. Simplifying that to a cartoon sketch so we can safely put a label on it and distance it from ourselves, is childish.
No victim is ever only a victim (I mean over a lifetime), no perpetrator is ever only defined by their crime. I drove a bus once, doesn't make me a bus driver. Did Jurrah do wrong? Of course he did and he will rightly pay for that wrong. Was it a particularly serious crime for which he should never again be allowed into polite society? No, it seems to have been a fairly minor assault, less severe than Marley's on his victim.
And for the absolutists: Mandela was once a terrorist. Maybe he should never have been released from jail? Orson Welles, one of the true geniuses of cinema, treated his wife, Rita Hayworth, terribly (not necessarily talking physical assault), does that diminish his art? We can say that total condemnation is appropriate, it's what they do afterwards that matters and determines whether they can be shown any kind of forgiveness or empathy, but I say no. All people are a totally at every stage of their lives and we should make an attempt to see more than one facet. The most revered moral leaders have not been absolutists (Mandela, Ghandi, Jesus...), what hide for us mere mortals to think that we are fit to stand in judgement? |
Great post, Inkling. Perhaps one of the most important things for Jurrah from hereon is that he doesn't define himself in this narrow way�as a crook, as a wife-beater, or whatever. You have to have some kind of hope to properly rehabilitate, I imagine, and that's certainly not going to come from listening to the "lock him up and throw away the key" crowd.
I hope the good people in his life like Rudeboy keep providing him with the support to get past all this. Unconditional friendship is a rare and powerful thing.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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All these wonderful warm hearted posts and yet I still couldn't give two shits about Liam jurrah's current incarceration. That's not "absolute condemnation" but rather not giving a toss about him being locked up. It's where he needs to be.
He's a big boy, hopefully he can turn it round himself for the sake of society as a whole let alone himself. He'll have all the access to the necessary resources that we all do in our lives as we try so very hard to not commit a crime.
Some people need a giant kick in the arse to sort themselves out, not a fricken hug and some soothing words about what a nice guy he is on the inside, and that it's ok because a few generations ago his people were persecuted. His rehabilitation David starts with jail time. Not a long term solution I admitt but short term a fantastic wake up call to the gravity of his offence.
Enough sugar coating. And enough of my time on the topic.
_________________
No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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magman29
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Location: echuca
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| This, ^^^.. sums up my feelngs also |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| September Zeros wrote: | All these wonderful warm hearted posts and yet I still couldn't give two shits about Liam jurrah's current incarceration. That's not "absolute condemnation" but rather not giving a toss about him being locked up. It's where he needs to be.
He's a big boy, hopefully he can turn it round himself for the sake of society as a whole let alone himself. He'll have all the access to the necessary resources that we all do in our lives as we try so very hard to not commit a crime.
Some people need a giant kick in the arse to sort themselves out, not a fricken hug and some soothing words about what a nice guy he is on the inside, and that it's ok because a few generations ago his people were persecuted. His rehabilitation David starts with jail time. Not a long term solution I admitt but short term a fantastic wake up call to the gravity of his offence.
Enough sugar coating. And enough of my time on the topic. |
We really need a like button.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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SZ, that's a straw-man of my argument (and Rudeboy's, and Inkling's). Nobody's saying that he needs a pat on the head and told it's all ok. We support his custodial sentence. As far as I can gather from others' posts, we all think this punishment is necessary. Were you ever given a metaphorical 'kick up the arse' by your parents when you were young and had done something to deserve it? Do you think this meant they stopped feeling empathy for you or loving you unconditionally? Why shouldn't we apply the same concept to adults?
Anyhow. You're entitled to not give a shit about Jurrah or what he's going through right now. That's your prerogative. Those of us who do give a shit are also entitled to do so. On balance, I suspect that it is people like us (where we are in a position to have any influence) who will have a much more positive impact in the long run.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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holdencaulfield
Joined: 12 Apr 2013
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | David did go onto a bit of a tangent there - though, he's right absolute free will is demonstrably false. It's really quite amazing how well and universally situation predicts crime. Male? 20s-30s? Poor? Ethnic minority? etc, etc... which just goes to show that us male model citizens are far better people than women model citizens - his general point though is a fair one. What purpose do comments of absolute condemnation serve? And what does it say about the person making them?
Given how clearly, objectively wrong they are, absolute comments about any person's character make little sense to me. Any person is made of complex and contradicting characteristics. Simplifying that to a cartoon sketch so we can safely put a label on it and distance it from ourselves, is childish.
No victim is ever only a victim (I mean over a lifetime), no perpetrator is ever only defined by their crime. I drove a bus once, doesn't make me a bus driver. Did Jurrah do wrong? Of course he did and he will rightly pay for that wrong. Was it a particularly serious crime for which he should never again be allowed into polite society? No, it seems to have been a fairly minor assault, less severe than Marley's on his victim.
And for the absolutists: Mandela was once a terrorist. Maybe he should never have been released from jail? Orson Welles, one of the true geniuses of cinema, treated his wife, Rita Hayworth, terribly (not necessarily talking physical assault), does that diminish his art? We can say that total condemnation is appropriate, it's what they do afterwards that matters and determines whether they can be shown any kind of forgiveness or empathy, but I say no. All people are a totally at every stage of their lives and we should make an attempt to see more than one facet. The most revered moral leaders have not been absolutists (Mandela, Ghandi, Jesus...), what hide for us mere mortals to think that we are fit to stand in judgement? |
Mandela was a terrorist but redeemed himself with his selfless behaviour and spent many years in jail for his beliefs
Ghandi stood up to the British and always conducted himself peacefully, but he admitted to sharing a bed with a teenage female relative to test his "resolve"
Martin Luther King was a wonderful orator and fought for his people to be afforded basic human rights but was also a shameless womaniser and had many affairs under his long suffering wife's nose.
All the above were heroes of mine because they were ordinary men who had faults but rose to extraordinary heights
To mention Jurrah in the same category would be ridiculous. He is supposedly an "Elder" but thus far has brought nothing but shame to himself and his people. He has just reinforced the negative stereotypes which the public associates with indigenous people. Can he rise up above all this and actually be a benefit to the community and be a positive role model for his people? The ball is firmly at his feet
He could start by getting off the grog and not bashing women and girls |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| think positive wrote: | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
man that term gets overuse on this forum |
This is my point. It's not the sentiment that's the problem here, it's the undertones of looking down ones nose from self righteous high ground. It's a self indulged belief it's their duty to educate the heathens.
David's signature says it all.
P.S. I just passed you a love note under the table think positive. You may not want to go out with me but reading it will be far more entertaining than this lecture...... Want to skip 5th period together?
_________________
No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
________________ |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| September Zeros wrote: | | think positive wrote: | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
man that term gets overuse on this forum |
This is my point. It's not the sentiment that's the problem here, it's the undertones of looking down ones nose from self righteous high ground. It's a self indulged belief it's their duty to educate the heathens.
David's signature says it all.
P.S. I just passed you a love note under the table think positive. You may not want to go out with me but reading it will be far more entertaining than this lecture...... Want to skip 5th period together? |
I actually laughed out loud!!!
cheers
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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This is GD not VPT.
Either move the thread or lock it.
P.S-What does this have to do with Collingwood anyway?
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Damien 
Me Noah & Flynn @ the G
Joined: 21 Jan 1999
Location: Croydon Vic
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| swoop42 wrote: | This is GD not VPT.
Either move the thread or lock it.
P.S-What does this have to do with Collingwood anyway? |
Man this is just a typical day in the life of Nicks BB.
A post is put up about a specific topic in football and next thing you see that it's up to 4 pages so you check in to see how the discussion has progressed and it's usually been hijacked by a couple of individuals have a verbal stoush about: who can use the biggest words, who can take the highest moral high ground, who has the solution to world peace ...Basically who has the bigger knob.
_________________
'Collingwood are the Bradmans of Football'
The Herald - 1930 |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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Mine is definitely competitive,
_________________
No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
________________ |
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Stupied
Joined: 14 Mar 2013
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| September Zeros wrote: | | think positive wrote: | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
man that term gets overuse on this forum |
This is my point. It's not the sentiment that's the problem here, it's the undertones of looking down ones nose from self righteous high ground. It's a self indulged belief it's their duty to educate the heathens.
David's signature says it all.
P.S. I just passed you a love note under the table think positive. You may not want to go out with me but reading it will be far more entertaining than this lecture...... Want to skip 5th period together? |
I've largely avoided this thread because I knew the direction it would head in right from the start. Luckily you're here to sum up my exact thoughts very nicely SZ. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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It is a crying shame:
It's very sad for Mrs Jurrah.
Very sad for the Jurrah family.
Very sad for their Community.
It's also in a different way sad for the perpetrator. He's getting what's coming to him. He's offended. He's broken the law & needs to be penalised appropriately for what he's done.
But the story is so sad.
I still recall Rudeboy talking about him when there was hope when he first arrived at Collingwood.
Due to that I went to watch him through Nicks at a Collingwood VFL game when he was donning the black & white vertical stripes
The fact English may have been his third or fourth language.
When Rudeboy asked him a question he might have responded a day to two later with a response - the different sense of time.
The way in which AFL plays such a dominant role in that culture.
His unique prowess at footy
That his first taste of AFL / VFL was with Collingwood
That when he first arrived & stepped on a treadmill & off course his legs went behind him
Jurrah is responsible for his actions & the consequences of his actions.
We can disagree on causation in terms of the wider context of how badly indigenous Australians have been treated by whites (if people choose to feel guilt that is their issue (a non issue IMO) - I don't & I'm white) - for me it's a lay down misere & not too difficult to understand. Some good readings by Professor Henry Reynolds, Gary Foley & the Jesuit whose name escapes me is always enlightening.
Rudeboy & David have (as they do quite regularly) hit the nail mostly on the head IMO.
Congratulations to the Industrial Magpies for their efforts here. Liam is lucky to have a friend like Rudeboy - there certainly are grey clouds over Collingwood - at times.
At times we make choices, at times they are not active choices but things turn out: e.g., what if I didn't ask my wife of 35 years out all those years ago - how would my life have turned out.....To relate this to the thread: in the same way I wonder what would have happened to Liam Jurrah had Collingwood picked him up & not Melbourne?
All the same, there are no winners here.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Sat May 10, 2014 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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