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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| The Racist Dog-Whistler asserted that he won in a "landslide" in 2016. He won - wait for it - 306 to 232. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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If we’re choosing to take random states out of the equation, then remove Texas and Biden wins the electoral college 306–194 and the rest of the country 52.2–47.8 two-candidate-preferred. I’m not sure why we would do that, but Stui seems to think it’s a relevant measurement of something. 
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | Why not just go full-on fascist? You could ban whole swathes of people from voting. You know you want to. |
Predictable, a lefty throwing out the Facist term when beaten by logic when it's actually the left that devalues the votes of those they consider inferior to them. |
Wrong two different ways.
1: Fascism is as fascism does. Voter suppression, huge lies as a matter of repeated policy, hate speech and dog whistling against minorities, uniformed, armed gangs on the street belting up anyone with skin the wrong colour, denying election results .... Trump is a classic fascist.
2: There is no logic to your posts on this topic. You repeatedly ignore and minimise clear evidence that a strong majority of Americans voted Trump out (and indeed that a smaller but nevertheless substantial majority of Americans voted against him the first time). There are only two possibilities here:
(a) that you have no clue about democracy, and are totally illogical. (I hope so.)
(b) that you actually support the disenfranchisment of millions of people who don't vote the way you do.
Your posts indicate that 2b is correct, but I really hope that it is 2a.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | California really skews the results though. Take them out of it, the other 49 states went 50.2% Biden, 49.8% Trump.
As much as Californians want to think they run the USA, they're only one state. |
Your adoration for non-representational voting might make you feel better as someone who identifies with rugged frontier isolationism, but the over-weighting of a maladaptive, religio-authoritarian culture is sinking the US into the abyss of history at a rapid clip.
If you spent longer than five minutes in that dysfunctional ignorance you'd be begging to live elsewhere. It's a culture lost in time, growing increasingly bitter as the world leaves it behind. |
I'm not sure if you need to stop taking drugs or start.
I have NFI why you think I have a boner for non representative voting, just pointing out some facts that California isn't representative of the rest of the USA. And I have spent time there and loved it. |
I was talking about the contrasting states, although you can throw sparse regions of California in if you wish. Being surrounded by the Christian Taliban, imperial racists, gun nuts and anti-science ignoramuses would grow weary and oppressive very quickly. These places are often great for holidays precisely because they're weird. But setting the agenda for a 21st century superpower? Not so much.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Pi 
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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If you had compulsory voting then...but that won’t happen either
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Tannin wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | Why not just go full-on fascist? You could ban whole swathes of people from voting. You know you want to. |
Predictable, a lefty throwing out the Facist term when beaten by logic when it's actually the left that devalues the votes of those they consider inferior to them. |
Wrong two different ways.
1: Fascism is as fascism does. Voter suppression, huge lies as a matter of repeated policy, hate speech and dog whistling against minorities, uniformed, armed gangs on the street belting up anyone with skin the wrong colour, denying election results .... Trump is a classic fascist.
2: There is no logic to your posts on this topic. You repeatedly ignore and minimise clear evidence that a strong majority of Americans voted Trump out (and indeed that a smaller but nevertheless substantial majority of Americans voted against him the first time). There are only two possibilities here:
(a) that you have no clue about democracy, and are totally illogical. (I hope so.)
(b) that you actually support the disenfranchisment of millions of people who don't vote the way you do.
Your posts indicate that 2b is correct, but I really hope that it is 2a. |
Neither of those is correct, my points were clear and factual, I'm not responsible for people's inability to understand nor their desire to invent interpretations or motivations that only exist in their mind.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Honestly, I think Maine and Nebraska have this right by splitting their electoral college votes up by district. If every state did that then I expect you'd get a result that more closely reflects the popular vote*. Even apart from issues like the Electoral College as it's currently constituted favouring Republicans, the notion of winner-take-all states seems like a big problem in its own right – and leads to a situation where, as P4S pointed out a few pages back, large numbers of voters from "safe" states essentially hold no electoral sway.
*Although maybe my intuitive feeling is wrong here – interestingly, this analysis suggests that such a model would, while narrowing Trump's electoral college margin in 2016, have actually flipped the 2012 election to Romney:
https://electoralvotemap.com/what-if-all-states-split-their-electoral-votes-like-maine-and-nebraska/
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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What is it with all these stupid ideas about fiddling with state borders and shuffling the deck chairs around?
Even your idea, David, which is more sensible than most of them, is based upon the fundamentally anti-democratic and very stupid notion of building some crazy great complicated electoral system on top of the vote in order to get a not-quite-so-hopelessly-unfair result as the current ancient relic from the days before we had modern technology like trains and typewriters and steamships.
It is not hard. You have 150 million voters. (Round numbers.) You count all the votes, and the candidate who gets 75,000,0001 (or more) is the winner.
100% fair. Very, very simple. And you can't game the system, which means that Trump supporters will hate it.
(None of this is to support the anti-democratic idiocy of first-past-the-post voting, the foolishness of any system where the standard responsibilities of citizenship do not extend to voting, the two-party system, or the idea of direct election of a head of state. Those are all different questions for another post. I'm simply throwing my hands up in exasperation at the continual failure here to simply agree that more votes should always produce a winner, and that there is no need whatever for any complicated bullshite system. Just count the votes.)
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Oh, I totally agree in theory. I also think the electoral college is an undemocratic joke. But to paraphrase old mate Immanuel Kant, "ought implies can" – and to abolish the electoral college, you'd need a constitutional amendment, which requires three-quarters of state legislatures to be on board. More on that here:
https://www.nhpr.org/post/ask-civics-101-what-would-it-take-get-rid-electoral-college#stream/0
No reason why there shouldn't be a push for that, and it's not impossible it can succeed (though if we're talking radically changing the political system, I'd personally go even further and suggest abolishing the presidency altogether). But in the meantime, there are less pie-in-the-sky methods to at least make the EC more proportional, and state-level changes to the way electors are apportioned may be more achievable in the short term (though fraught with their own problems, including that any safe Democratic state with potential swing districts that jumps first benefits the other side unless a Republican-held state does the same).
Frankly, what the US really needs is a comprehensive overhaul of its constitution and voting system. But I don't think anyone's confident that that will happen in the near future, particularly when both major parties benefit so much from the way things currently are.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Pi
Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA
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^
You might want be careful what you wish for. Let’s abolish all national governments and have a majority rules world government with local representatives approved only by the world president. Still like it?
Every time this comes up thats what my US friends say to me
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Pi = Infinite = Collingwood = Always
Floreat Pica |
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23 YIPPEE!!!
YIPPEE 23!!!
Joined: 24 Jul 2019
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Agree David the US needs to have its "system" totally over hauled and a complete improvment on the current set up. The way it is now is full of fraud and does not make sence.
The USA over the years has become a cesspot and is becoming a basket case and has terrible society and has lost the plot.
To many people down each others throats too.
And too much BS.
USA has lost appeal and is ugly. |
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23 YIPPEE!!!
YIPPEE 23!!!
Joined: 24 Jul 2019
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| And Europe and UK are getting that way too. i feel Europe has gone to the dogs im afraid. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Next, the appalling horror show of the US Executive has to be reined in. Quaint customs trying to hold back vengeful wreckers and corrupt grifters just won't cut it.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| 90 nice wrote: | Agree David the US needs to have its "system" totally over hauled and a complete improvment on the current set up. The way it is now is full of fraud and does not make sence.
The USA over the years has become a cesspot and is becoming a basket case and has terrible society and has lost the plot.
To many people down each others throats too.
And too much BS.
USA has lost appeal and is ugly. |
Speaking from what experience? Your opinion is as incorrect as your spelling.
unless you have travelled the back roads you have no idea, visiting LA and doing the visit the stars tour map doesn't make you an expert, and neither does a quick trip to New York or Vegas. Your "too many people down each others throat" comment tells me thats probably it. Yes America has some big crowded cities, but also lots and lots of open space. Indianapolis is not crowded at all for example. I have spent in total a good 6 months driving around the States, meeting people from all walks of life. Americans are not all gun toting, lion killing, red necked morons, just as all Aussies are not all bogan dickheads ripping through Bali.
Yes they do have massive problems, and as with every country, areas I would not venture into. Yes racism is clearly a problem in some parts. Too many parts. But if the NRA was dismantled, and someone was able to enforce real gun control, so many things about America would change for the better.
Have you been to Canada? Its America without the guns, and its a lot like Australia.
As for the Political scene, yep definitely needs an overhaul. Maybe even breaking it up into smaller governing national bodies. The first thing they need to do is rewrite the constitution, its badly outdated. But then I don't have much faith in Australia's politicians either!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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