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Daniel 
Joined: 22 Apr 2003
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| E wrote: | | Daniel wrote: | | E wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | thompsoc wrote: | | E wrote: | Unless you guys are all complete morons, i think you all must have noticed that Cloke's body is clearly shot to pieces from putting his body on the line too often. He looks EXACTLy like Dermie did when he played for Collingwood.
He was desperate to avoid big collisions when he spent an entire career relishing them. Why would he do this with his career on the line unless he is physically limited? there was mention of an epidural for a slipped disc and all sorts of rumors about about his health.
It is sad watching the best power forward of our generation (in my opinion - and this does not mean best forward - i recognize there have been other greats this generation, including Brown, Pavlich, Kennedy, Franklin, roughhead, etc. - i'm talking about the guy who could crash a pack and take the strong bull mark - the POWER forward) struggling now as a result of the very thing that made him great. made me sad watching him.
Its time for us to appreciate the wonderful contribution that Travis Cloke has made to the Collingwood Football Club.
Travis Cloke. Premiership Player! Thank you for a great career. i hope your body allows you some more great games. i understand that might not be possible. |
You are looking right there E.
I have kept out of this debate for one reason or other. but I don't think that his lack of crashing the pack is anything other than a body issue.
You mention Dermie And I will put up Gavin Brown because the first half of his career was fantastic but after using his body as a battering ram his career went downhill quickly.
As TP said years of being tripled teamed every week looksh like it has taken a terrible toll. |
I'm pretty sure that very few centre half forwards have played much beyond 30, which is why the club did not want to give Cloke a 5 yr contract extension back in 2012. The Dermie comparison is spot on. Cloke and his old man have to face up to the fact that the end is nigh. |
Do you think Cloke does, or do you think we do?
Regarding the 5 year contract, i want to say one thing. It is very usual in the USA for a players last contract to run 1-2 years past the players use by date. We need to just get used to that. Partly it is reward for great service, but often, its just the cost of getting a great players in the final prime years of their career.
arguably, we got Cloke on the cheap for the first 7 years of his career (including the premiership year) and then he got a year or two where he was overpaid. It isnt Grossly overpaying him.
How many years do you think Franklin will be paid after he passes his use by date (he has what 8 or nine years left on his contract). Sydney were happy to do this to get the first 5-6 years (and its looking like it might deliver a premiership this year - they look bloody good). |
I don't think the USA is a country that does much right, including treating its own citizens with contempt.
Unfortunately, for whatever reason Australia and *some Australians* are like ankle biters who will ask 'how high' when the shambolic USA asks us to jump.
Seriously, do you think Travis Cloke is poor and the club should give him a couple an extra 1.5 million for nothing? Now I've heard it all.
I think that's a very flawed way of thinking.
1) It would ruin our salary cap.
2) People who have character and integrity and belief in their abilities are happy to be on a 1 year deal.
Do you see Sam Mitchell complaining who I rate as one of the all time greats?
Did you see Brian Lake complaining?
Hodge complaining?
Do you see Brendon Bolton complaining who is employed by Carlton and NOT on any contract?
3) Why bother bringing Sydney and what they do into the argument? They're a franchise club of the AFL and can do whatever they like.
- academies (while also being able to access father/sons), inflated salary cap (which other club would be able to buy Tippett after losing a G.F. and the Franklin the year after after winning the GF?
- don't even bother talking about Sydney, as there are different sets of rules that apply to Sydney, G.W.S., Gold Coast and to a lesser degree Brisbane - than all other clubs. |
I love a post that alleges bigotry and is itself full of bigotry. I know you know much better than the AFL, but nearly every club has an executive in the US right now trying to learn best practices.
Separately, I honestly think you totally missed my point. Cloke clearly too a discount to market back in 2012 (of that there can be no denying). In the salary cap era (or at least the slary cap leagues that have a hard cap - meaning no ability to move cap space across seasons), it has become common for players that accept lower salaries (to help with the salary cap situations), by spreading the cap hit over extra seasons but getting the same aggregate amount (e.g., $750k over 5 seasons vs $1 million for 4). Even if he is a dud in year 5, he still gets paid the same amount for his 4 likely productive years. Given that, at the time, we had just won a flag and had a lot of salary cap pressure, taking less for longer actually helped the pies rather than hurt them. Of course at some point, you have to pay the piper (and we are doping that now - while we suck - so who cares). I'm sure you don't get this, but this enables you to assemble a better team in the good times (better shot at flag) while paying the piper in the bad times (who cares if you finish 11th or 12th).
Conversely, while Lake and Mitchell might have taken one year deals, they took really big salaries (which probably suited the salary cap situation of the Hawks at that time). I don't think anyone suggested Lake and Mitchell are taking huge haircuts.
Really ignorant post on your part my friend. |
You call it bigotry, I call it a healthy debate.
You call it tomato, I call it to-may-to.
Not sure where you're going with the 'bigotry thing' as it seems you are the one more intolerant of my post, than I was offended by yours.
Anyway prescious, I'll try to be 'unbigotry', just for you, speacial offer.
Fistly, if you have evidence "all clubs are going to the US for best practice" let's see it.
I would have thought each club has it's own ideas at to what constitutes 'best practice' and there is no better palace to learn from than the biggest sport in the world - soccer. Why do you suppose we are branching out into netball and women's football? Because we have taken a leaf out of Barca's book, Real Mardrid's book et al.
So please, if you can provide evidence of this US obsession, you are welcome as I would like to see it for one as I am 'ignorant'.
Secondly, Brian Lake joined the Hawks for a reported $150K max when he was traded from the dogs. I'm not sure where you are getting your figures from.
Mitchell (as most Hawks players, and prior Geelong players) all had to sacrifice personal wealth in order to achieve ultimate team success.
Now if we want to follow the US 'best practice' model, it's basically every man for himself and grab as much money as you can, while you can (because that extra $200K a year, on top of your $600K, if going to make you so much happier).
Social Statistics show that the if an individual earns $80K or over per annum, there is little change to that person's level of satisfaction in life, so given all AFL players, and especially stars like Travis Cloke have earnt well over that over a long period, I just don't get where you are coming from. Whether you agree or not, they are looked after and paid much higher than the average wage to do something they love - how many people fit that mould?
I am not talking about players other than Cloke here. I am talking specifically about Travis Cloke who has pocketed a small fortune from not only contracts across his career, but from edorsements outside of the cap.
Do you live in a Mansion where you can park you Harley in your living room? I don't think most people do, but Travis does.
Could you afford to stop work at 28, knowing had you invested prudently, you would not need to lift a finger if you so chose, for the remainder of your life.
What is most disappointing is that Travis has not justified a $400K per annum pay packet, let alone $750K plus. Levi Casboult would be on half of Tav's earnings, yet his output on gameday is significantly higher.
The days of a free lunch are well and truely over and nobody deserves 'a pension of sorts' just because they were loyal to a club. How about the club offering that player and opportunity to have access to the best facilities in the land to give them every opportunity of success, and all the external endorsements that attracts? Could Travis Cloke have achieved what he has without the club? I daresay not, and the club owes him squat.
The so called, 'salary cap era' you are talking about is no resemblance to how it works and I would encourage you to inform yourself before posting heresay.
The player and club decided what is suitable for both in terms of the contract length and how much will be paid each year, trigger clauses, etc etc.
I hope you don't run a business as you would struggle with your ideas to hand out cheques to blokes who aren't perfoming their job to the level required. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| You'd want to be a little careful about comparing Levi Casboult to an actual footballer. He's 26, has played 62 games over 5 seasons and has career averages of 6 kicks, 5 marks, 4 handballs and under a goal per game. His averages this year suggest a decline, rather than improvement. He has played one fair game this season. It happened to be against our rabble. On that day, he had about 25% of his total kicks for the season so far, 20% of all his marks for the season and kicked 3 of his 8 goals for the year. That also happened to be about the best of a handful of more or less adequate games he has played over his career. By all means, express your opinions about Cloke but don't insult our intelligence by comparing Travis with a guy who would struggle to hold down a spot in our VFL team. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Daniel wrote: | | E wrote: | | Daniel wrote: | | E wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | thompsoc wrote: | | E wrote: | Unless you guys are all complete morons, i think you all must have noticed that Cloke's body is clearly shot to pieces from putting his body on the line too often. He looks EXACTLy like Dermie did when he played for Collingwood.
He was desperate to avoid big collisions when he spent an entire career relishing them. Why would he do this with his career on the line unless he is physically limited? there was mention of an epidural for a slipped disc and all sorts of rumors about about his health.
It is sad watching the best power forward of our generation (in my opinion - and this does not mean best forward - i recognize there have been other greats this generation, including Brown, Pavlich, Kennedy, Franklin, roughhead, etc. - i'm talking about the guy who could crash a pack and take the strong bull mark - the POWER forward) struggling now as a result of the very thing that made him great. made me sad watching him.
Its time for us to appreciate the wonderful contribution that Travis Cloke has made to the Collingwood Football Club.
Travis Cloke. Premiership Player! Thank you for a great career. i hope your body allows you some more great games. i understand that might not be possible. |
You are looking right there E.
I have kept out of this debate for one reason or other. but I don't think that his lack of crashing the pack is anything other than a body issue.
You mention Dermie And I will put up Gavin Brown because the first half of his career was fantastic but after using his body as a battering ram his career went downhill quickly.
As TP said years of being tripled teamed every week looksh like it has taken a terrible toll. |
I'm pretty sure that very few centre half forwards have played much beyond 30, which is why the club did not want to give Cloke a 5 yr contract extension back in 2012. The Dermie comparison is spot on. Cloke and his old man have to face up to the fact that the end is nigh. |
Do you think Cloke does, or do you think we do?
Regarding the 5 year contract, i want to say one thing. It is very usual in the USA for a players last contract to run 1-2 years past the players use by date. We need to just get used to that. Partly it is reward for great service, but often, its just the cost of getting a great players in the final prime years of their career.
arguably, we got Cloke on the cheap for the first 7 years of his career (including the premiership year) and then he got a year or two where he was overpaid. It isnt Grossly overpaying him.
How many years do you think Franklin will be paid after he passes his use by date (he has what 8 or nine years left on his contract). Sydney were happy to do this to get the first 5-6 years (and its looking like it might deliver a premiership this year - they look bloody good). |
I don't think the USA is a country that does much right, including treating its own citizens with contempt.
Unfortunately, for whatever reason Australia and *some Australians* are like ankle biters who will ask 'how high' when the shambolic USA asks us to jump.
Seriously, do you think Travis Cloke is poor and the club should give him a couple an extra 1.5 million for nothing? Now I've heard it all.
I think that's a very flawed way of thinking.
1) It would ruin our salary cap.
2) People who have character and integrity and belief in their abilities are happy to be on a 1 year deal.
Do you see Sam Mitchell complaining who I rate as one of the all time greats?
Did you see Brian Lake complaining?
Hodge complaining?
Do you see Brendon Bolton complaining who is employed by Carlton and NOT on any contract?
3) Why bother bringing Sydney and what they do into the argument? They're a franchise club of the AFL and can do whatever they like.
- academies (while also being able to access father/sons), inflated salary cap (which other club would be able to buy Tippett after losing a G.F. and the Franklin the year after after winning the GF?
- don't even bother talking about Sydney, as there are different sets of rules that apply to Sydney, G.W.S., Gold Coast and to a lesser degree Brisbane - than all other clubs. |
I love a post that alleges bigotry and is itself full of bigotry. I know you know much better than the AFL, but nearly every club has an executive in the US right now trying to learn best practices.
Separately, I honestly think you totally missed my point. Cloke clearly too a discount to market back in 2012 (of that there can be no denying). In the salary cap era (or at least the slary cap leagues that have a hard cap - meaning no ability to move cap space across seasons), it has become common for players that accept lower salaries (to help with the salary cap situations), by spreading the cap hit over extra seasons but getting the same aggregate amount (e.g., $750k over 5 seasons vs $1 million for 4). Even if he is a dud in year 5, he still gets paid the same amount for his 4 likely productive years. Given that, at the time, we had just won a flag and had a lot of salary cap pressure, taking less for longer actually helped the pies rather than hurt them. Of course at some point, you have to pay the piper (and we are doping that now - while we suck - so who cares). I'm sure you don't get this, but this enables you to assemble a better team in the good times (better shot at flag) while paying the piper in the bad times (who cares if you finish 11th or 12th).
Conversely, while Lake and Mitchell might have taken one year deals, they took really big salaries (which probably suited the salary cap situation of the Hawks at that time). I don't think anyone suggested Lake and Mitchell are taking huge haircuts.
Really ignorant post on your part my friend. |
You call it bigotry, I call it a healthy debate.
You call it tomato, I call it to-may-to.
Not sure where you're going with the 'bigotry thing' as it seems you are the one more intolerant of my post, than I was offended by yours.
Anyway prescious, I'll try to be 'unbigotry', just for you, speacial offer.
Fistly, if you have evidence "all clubs are going to the US for best practice" let's see it.
I would have thought each club has it's own ideas at to what constitutes 'best practice' and there is no better palace to learn from than the biggest sport in the world - soccer. Why do you suppose we are branching out into netball and women's football? Because we have taken a leaf out of Barca's book, Real Mardrid's book et al.
So please, if you can provide evidence of this US obsession, you are welcome as I would like to see it for one as I am 'ignorant'.
Secondly, Brian Lake joined the Hawks for a reported $150K max when he was traded from the dogs. I'm not sure where you are getting your figures from.
Mitchell (as most Hawks players, and prior Geelong players) all had to sacrifice personal wealth in order to achieve ultimate team success.
Now if we want to follow the US 'best practice' model, it's basically every man for himself and grab as much money as you can, while you can (because that extra $200K a year, on top of your $600K, if going to make you so much happier).
Social Statistics show that the if an individual earns $80K or over per annum, there is little change to that person's level of satisfaction in life, so given all AFL players, and especially stars like Travis Cloke have earnt well over that over a long period, I just don't get where you are coming from. Whether you agree or not, they are looked after and paid much higher than the average wage to do something they love - how many people fit that mould?
I am not talking about players other than Cloke here. I am talking specifically about Travis Cloke who has pocketed a small fortune from not only contracts across his career, but from edorsements outside of the cap.
Do you live in a Mansion where you can park you Harley in your living room? I don't think most people do, but Travis does.
Could you afford to stop work at 28, knowing had you invested prudently, you would not need to lift a finger if you so chose, for the remainder of your life.
What is most disappointing is that Travis has not justified a $400K per annum pay packet, let alone $750K plus. Levi Casboult would be on half of Tav's earnings, yet his output on gameday is significantly higher.
The days of a free lunch are well and truely over and nobody deserves 'a pension of sorts' just because they were loyal to a club. How about the club offering that player and opportunity to have access to the best facilities in the land to give them every opportunity of success, and all the external endorsements that attracts? Could Travis Cloke have achieved what he has without the club? I daresay not, and the club owes him squat.
The so called, 'salary cap era' you are talking about is no resemblance to how it works and I would encourage you to inform yourself before posting heresay.
The player and club decided what is suitable for both in terms of the contract length and how much will be paid each year, trigger clauses, etc etc.
I hope you don't run a business as you would struggle with your ideas to hand out cheques to blokes who aren't perfoming their job to the level required. |
Daniel, this is awesome. Thanks for taking the time. Its pretty rambling, but I can confirm a number of your points.
1. Yes, I live in a house were I can park a Harley in my living room (although I might have to move my Ferrari and Maserati).
2. This week I met with a small team of administrators from the West Coast eagles, who are here on a best practices mission. I hooked them up with Brooklyn Nets management while they were in New York (and I am aware they had plans to meet with the Dodgers, Red Sox, Celtics and Lakers organizations as well). They are only one club of a continuous stream of Australian clubs trying to learn about what works and what doesn't work in US sports. Surely you've seen some of these changes. Pretty sure last year, there was public disclosure of the Eddie trip as well. For what its worth, its the really successful clubs like the Eagles, Hawks, Cats and Crows who have spent the most time over here. Collingwood were late to the party, but Hine was here with others about 2 years ago and met with a similar list of teams. I should add, I did not mention that to suggest that they aren't also going to Europe to learn from the European forms of sport as well. I am sure they are. In terms of player salaries though, soccer is a poor model, because, like Baseball over here, they prefer no caps on spending (meaning Barca has been able to spend its way into your heart). I love that you criticize Cloke for earning $750k per year and then praise Barcelona for being good because they pay Lionel Messi about that much per WEEK!!!! If you want to learn about salary cap management, really the states (those greedy little f$ckers) are really the only show in town, since its their idea.
3. I do run a business (a very successful business that experienced 20% profit growth last year on profits exceeding $200 million USD), and in order to retain valuable talent, we routinely over pay them at certain times because their value to the business (at that particular point in time) necessitates us paying overs. Usually the decision is that the cost of replacing them with like talent is too high (or the drop in performance we would have using the next best guy would be too great). Of course, when we have the upper hand (end of career or when they are a dime a dozen and easily replaced), we tend to do better with them. Value in sport (and in business) is, more than ever, about replacement value and less about actual contribution in an absolute sense. The way to think about this is that Cloke would never have got that deal if we had the 2016 version of Darcy Moore on our list back then (or if we didn't think our premiership window was still open).
4. I am 100% right about the salary cap era. Australia is still figuring out which type of salary cap makes sense for the league. NFL uses a season floating cap meaning you can adjust payments season to season as long as in the long term you are within the requirements. This mean a team that thinks they can win this year can pay a bit extra in the current year to put them over the top. Its how the Ravens won the superbowl in 2000 and why they sucked straight after winning. It also means you don't have to get too worried about structuring contracts. The NHL has a hard cap, like the AFL has been historically, which means there is a tendency to put great players on really long deals so that you can spread the cost of a star over non-successful years to enhance your chances in successful years. The NBA has a different cap structure again, where the cap only applies to prevent your trading and free agent flexibility (and to create financial penalties). Baseball on has financial penalties and no real cap at all. My sense is that as a result of a lot of time in the USA, the AFL favors the NFL model (which by the way, is better suited to large numbers of players on team lists). I think there has been talk of them moving that way for some time. Until they do, the long term NHL hockey contract was one was for a club to meet the demands of players and still stay at the top in a competitive environment.
5. I never suggested a free lunch or a pension anywhere in my post. For the reasons stated in 1-4 above, cloke had leverage of $1 million per year deals on the table and Collingwood couldn't match it. Collingwood needed to keep Cloke as they thought (erroneously it turned out), that we could still compete for flags and losing Cloke would have ended that. The only thing they had to counter the large offer was an extra year. They did it to keep their guy. Travis Cloke knew as a power forward, this was definitely his last contract of substance. He (and Collingwood) probably also knew that there was a VERY HIGH probability that Travis Cloke would be a shadow of the player he was by the time 2016 rolled around.
It seems everyone involved in the Cloke deal had their eyes wide open, except you Daniel. I think what your post really shows is that you are upset that Travis Cloke didn't put love of club above all else (including his financial future). You would like him to play for free if that is what is needed so that your team can win a football game.
Imagine if your earning capacity stopped at 28. wouldn't you want to make sure you were set up for life. I recently recruited a former NFL player who played for 5 years as a starting corner. Made really good money and career ended from injury at 290. he is now 35 and trying to find a way to reinvent himself so he can have money when he is 80! That's not something we can relate to. retired at 28. I was just starting my money earning years then.
So thanks for taking the time. Many of your points are thought provoking and many of your comments are also raised by many others on this site who maybe don't think things all the way through.
PS: if you don't have room for your Harley in your living room, I'd be happy to store it in mine. 
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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Tom Browne from Twitter said he been Dropped. We seen the last of Cloke in the AFL Side.
Hopefully we can send him off with a VFL Flag
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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Stick a fork in him.
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Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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Good ole Bobby boy was right all along, as per usual.
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Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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GreekLunatic
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: doncaster vic australia
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| What did he do so bad to be dropped he wasn't our worst |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| Dave The Man wrote: | Tom Browne from Twitter said he been Dropped. We seen the last of Cloke in the AFL Side.
Hopefully we can send him off with a VFL Flag |
Maybe not, I suspect he'll get a 2nd chance from whoever takes over once Bucks gets the chop. |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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| The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | Dave The Man wrote: | Tom Browne from Twitter said he been Dropped. We seen the last of Cloke in the AFL Side.
Hopefully we can send him off with a VFL Flag |
Maybe not, I suspect he'll get a 2nd chance from whoever takes over once Bucks gets the chop. |
Cloke be gone before Bucks
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I am Da Man |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| Dave The Man wrote: | | The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | Dave The Man wrote: | Tom Browne from Twitter said he been Dropped. We seen the last of Cloke in the AFL Side.
Hopefully we can send him off with a VFL Flag |
Maybe not, I suspect he'll get a 2nd chance from whoever takes over once Bucks gets the chop. |
Cloke be gone before Bucks |
Maybe. Depends if Bucks survives the year, remember... the 1st half of the year was the 'soft' part of the draw so we'll see. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| I'm glad Cloke's been dropped. Witts deserves to come in. |
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Cam
Nick's BB Member #166
Joined: 10 May 2002
Location: Springvale
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I find this slightly staggering, there must be alot more to this than just form.
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Get back on top. |
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Dark Beanie 
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Location: A galaxy far, far away.
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Was mentioned on the radio earlier today, that Pies were looking at going with 2 rucks to counteract Gawns influence. Obviously not counting Cox as one of those rucks.
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didick
didick
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Location: Brisbane
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| Cam wrote: | | I find this slightly staggering, there must be alot more to this than just form. |
Yep shocking and disturbing. Feel for Clokey.
So he gets one week? And he's the one dropped from a crap team performance? This is bullsh$t.
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| didick wrote: | | Cam wrote: | | I find this slightly staggering, there must be alot more to this than just form. |
Yep shocking and disturbing. Feel for Clokey.
So he gets one week? And he's the one dropped from a crap team performance? This is bullsh$t. |
Cloke is finished mate. He can no longer get off the ground, let alone crash the packs. All good things come to an end. Dermie was finished at this age too. Time to move on. This gives us an opportunity to bring back Witts to see if he can have a longer term future in our team. |
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