Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index
 The RulesThe Rules FAQFAQ
   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch 
Log inLog in RegisterRegister
 
Man charged over racial slurs/online abuse (Nic Nat)

Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 1 Guest
Registered Users: None

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern
 
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:42 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Not at all.

When you call someone the N-word, that is offensive and threatening and a breech of the peace and they have every right to seek redress. The N-word taps directly into a long and sorry history of violence and intimidation directed at that person and his family, intimidation that continues to this day.

Pretending you can use the N-word to intimidate or harass and then say "it is just my right of free speech" won't wash. If it wasn't designed to cause harm, you wouldn't use it in the first place.

The law recognises this, and (contrary to your outrageous distortion) it doesn't make it illegal to offend anyone. No law could ever stop someone taking offence or feeling intimidated. What the law can (and does) do is prevent gratuitous offensiveness directed at particular people because of the colour of their skin; offensiveness which, having regard to all of the circumstances, is likely to be seen by a reasonable person as what it is: naked, ugly racism.

_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
woodisgood Pisces



Joined: 30 May 2007
Location: Prahran

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:58 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

watt price tully wrote:
woodisgood wrote:
.......

Or how are you proposing to deal with the paradox of a left wing pinko bisexual who works in refugee advocacy like me finding nothing much in the passage you quoted that I disagree with? Maybe I'm a crypto-fascist?


Do you really want me to answer that?

I did like your joke about the tea party though. Wink


A) Yes

B) Hey, Leviticus totally rocks the shit. Don't tell me you've been sowing fields with different grains again? *sighs and searches for throwy sized rocks*

_________________
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen. "

Winston Churchill
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:44 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

The opposition to the law is a religio-legal fundamentalist paranoia with no empirical support in actual reality. As expected, society has seen zero decline in fair competition between citizens on the basis of not being able to use race to isolate and damage people. That's a zero decline in fair competition, and for those less bullied no doubt an improved sense of social safety and protection. All for the cost of something far less onerous than any number of daily commonsense constraints tolerated without notice.

Revoking the law will do only one thing: Signal a decline in the social acknowledgement and protection of minorities. Meanwhile, it goes without saying that it is a basic need for citizens, tourists, temporary workers and businesspeople in a complex multicultural world to feel socially safe and not at risk of racial violence caused by primitive human urges to isolate and persecute outgroups.

In terms of human development and enlightenment, I would rate the current Australian racial vilification law as possibly the high water mark in human history. Few other places on the planet in history have looked minorities in the eye with such a degree of comprehension, and looked in the mirror of human nature with such scientific clarity and commonsense, as to institute such protections.

The rightness of the current law cannot be assessed on the basis of a shorthand slogan we were told as children. We now know that one of the primary flaws of the primitive brain is its tendency to isolate, react towards, and indeed commit acts of violence against minorities. The science shows we are all prone to such irrationality, but mercifully the more advanced features of our brain - sometimes with the prompting of helpful social habits, signals and deterrents - override the Neanderthal within.

We also know that at the macro mob level our ability to override the primitive brain is easily lost under the slightest degree of stress or excitation. This is a risk that needs to be guarded against if we're at all serious about the safety of all within our borders; it's too late once the mob has been whipped into a frenzy to deploy rational arguments as if racial vilification has something to do with the thinking brain.

And just as violence against outgroups is a feature of human behaviour that has to be permanently constrained in some way, racial prejudice is a feature of human behaviour at no risk of extinction whatsoever; why anyone would think it needs protection is beyond me. Surely the least we can do is encode a red light in our legal system concerning the risks of racial persecution and violence, acknowledging the real safety issues and stresses minorities in a multicultural, highly compressed 21st century face daily.

Australia has done as much and is currently leading the world in this regard. To unwind such progress to satisfy a bookish, oversimplistic understanding of "free speech" is bizarre. To favour some mental legal symmetry over the actual dangers and felt stresses minorities endure, and in the face of twenty years of empirical evidence that shows the law has had no unintended negative effects whatsoever, is to miss the moral boat by a mile.

Interestingly, the favouring of mental symmetry over real human experience, and "purity" over human wellbeing, are among the classic hallmarks of fundamentalist religion. And that is exactly what opposition to this law looks like, sounds like, and quite possibly is.

_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 4:55 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Wokko wrote:
Tannin wrote:
^ Bahh. An irrelevant quote, followed by self-contradiction. As you say yourself, harassing someone verbally in public is NOT free speech, it is a breach of the peace and an infringement on another's right to freedom. Case closed.


Not really, you're equating verbal violence and speech that you don't like to be the same thing. If I'm sitting on the Train and someone says "**** I hate white people, those cracker scumbags are always looking down on me" then this person has engaged in Free speech. I despise what they say, I find them rude, racist, bigoted and ignorant but I believe they should be able to have this conversation (change the racial group to suit your own experience). Now if this same person sat across from me and said "**** you whitey scumbag, why don't you jump of this train before I throw you off" and then proceeded to expand upon this with more insults and threats then that is then violently infringing on MY rights.

First example leads to someone/s being offended, no damage done and probably people telling the idiot to pull his head in. The second example will and should lead to arrest. Constantly obfuscating the argument against Freedom of Expression by bringing up public verbal harassment or incitement to violence is, while quite convincing, nonetheless a strawman argument that doesn't logically lead to the necessity of infringing on basic human rights.


Good point. Didn't he make threats I. The messages? Isn't that what it's about?

_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:21 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

think positive wrote:


Good point. Didn't he make threats I. The messages? Isn't that what it's about?


The law he's being charged under is pretty broad and includes the term "cause offence", and the language used tends far more towards insults than threats. The tweet that could be construed as a threat said he'd love to meet Nic Naitanui "so I can bash your tall black ass". A pretty general statement and not a direct threat like "I'm coming to your house to bash you right now". One is a statement of desire the other is a threat.

As an aside, unless he's some kind of highly trained professional fighter, a small Vietnamese man trying to bash a giant Fijian would be quite a spectacle. Laughing
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
King Malta Leo

RIP Flip


Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Location: Gettin' Wiggy

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:26 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Tannin wrote:
Piesnchess wrote:
Freedom of speech and expression is one thing, but deliberately inciting race hate, on racial grounds, like on that bus recently, is an abomination, and cannot be tolerated


^ The whole truth of the matter in one easy sentence.

You are entitled to think whatever you like. Why? Because this is a free country.

You are entitled to say what you like. Why? Because this is a free country.

You are not entitled to browbeat, humiliate, or terrorise people with what you say. Why? Because this is a free country.

(You are free to attack ideas as violently as you like - ideas, not people. You are even free to say bad things about groups of people so long as this is not simply an attempt to humiliate or terrorise members of these groups, and especially not when membership of the group is involuntary because the person was born (for example) black or gay.)


One of the best posts in this thread, well said Tannin.

I don't understand why some think that people should have the right to abuse others and incite hatred simply because we should be free to say what we like.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:37 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Meh - 9 years imprisonment seems like a harsh maximum sentence, given that's more than most people ever get for manslaughter. I'd be keen to distinguish between the need for the offence and the size of the potential penalty. But, carry on.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 9:49 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

woodisgood wrote:
watt price tully wrote:
woodisgood wrote:
.......

Or how are you proposing to deal with the paradox of a left wing pinko bisexual who works in refugee advocacy like me finding nothing much in the passage you quoted that I disagree with? Maybe I'm a crypto-fascist?


Do you really want me to answer that?

I did like your joke about the tea party though. Wink


A) Yes

B) Hey, Leviticus totally rocks the shit. Don't tell me you've been sowing fields with different grains again? *sighs and searches for throwy sized rocks*


With respect to your questions:

A) I could tell you but I'd have to kill you.

B) Whats with your references to Leviticus?

I still like your sanitised description of the tea party. It's a hoot. Wink

_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Piesnchess 

piesnchess


Joined: 09 Jun 2008


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:00 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

AND, I see Attorney General Brandis, Tonys mate, now reckons its perfectly ok to be a Bigot, and you have the right to be Bigot. Guess that makes Andrew boltheads heart leap for joy. !
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.

Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:00 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

pietillidie wrote:
The opposition to the law is a religio-legal fundamentalist paranoia with no empirical support in actual reality. ..........

Interestingly, the favouring of mental symmetry over real human experience, and "purity" over human wellbeing, are among the classic hallmarks of fundamentalist religion. And that is exactly what opposition to this law looks like, sounds like, and quite possibly is.


Nail hit head. It smacks of a religious fundamentalism that I would expect in the USA.

Anyway I'm off to build my nuclear shelter because the government might be a comin'. Where is the peoples militia of Glenroy?

_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:12 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Piesnchess wrote:
AND, I see Attorney General Brandis, Tonys mate, now reckons its perfectly ok to be a Bigot, and you have the right to be Bigot. Guess that makes Andrew boltheads heart leap for joy. !


Do you realise the irony of condemning Brandis for saying that people have the right to be bigoted (they do) and then your own display of bigotry towards Andrew Bolt?

"Bigotry is the state of mind of a bigot: someone who, as a result of their prejudices, treats or views other people with fear, distrust, hatred, contempt, or intolerance on the basis of a person's opinion, ethnicity, race, religion, national origin, gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, disability, socioeconomic status, or other characteristics."

It always seems to be the social justice warriors displaying bigotry rather than those who want freedom for them to do so.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
David Libra

to wish impossible things


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:29 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of curiosity, for all those who ardently support racial vilification laws, what do you believe is the extent to which free speech should be curtailed? Is it any speech that could cause harm, or speech that feeds into oppression? Do you think you would you be likely to favour further restrictions if proposed (if the goal were, say, protection of minorities or further prosecution of bigotry)?
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail MSN Messenger  
Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:46 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pies4shaw wrote:
Meh - 9 years imprisonment seems like a harsh maximum sentence, given that's more than most people ever get for manslaughter. I'd be keen to distinguish between the need for the offence and the size of the potential penalty. But, carry on.


Agreed. I imagine that the nine year maximum was set with some very extreme circumstance in mind, and that a much lower sentence (such as a modest fine or bond or similar) would be the normal thing.

(I can't imagine what behaviour would (a) justify the 9 year max sentence and (b) not also trigger various other charges under ordinary criminal laws against assault and the like thus making the 9 year max unnecessary, but perhaps there is something I haven't thought of.)

_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:50 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Tannin wrote:
Pies4shaw wrote:
Meh - 9 years imprisonment seems like a harsh maximum sentence, given that's more than most people ever get for manslaughter. I'd be keen to distinguish between the need for the offence and the size of the potential penalty. But, carry on.


Agreed. I imagine that the nine year maximum was set with some very extreme circumstance in mind, and that a much lower sentence (such as a modest fine or bond or similar) would be the normal thing.

(I can't imagine what behaviour would (a) justify the 9 year max sentence and (b) not also trigger various other charges under ordinary criminal laws against assault and the like thus making the 9 year max unnecessary, but perhaps there is something I haven't thought of.)


I'd imagine a campaign of violent and specific threats over a long period of time that had someone end up institutionalised or who fled the stgate/country would deserve a rather large sentence. The part of that law dealing with threats made over a carrier service is imo 'good law' in that it is specific and has an indentifiable victim with obvious damage caused to them. Being offended is not damaging and nobody has the right to be 'not offended' at any stage.
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:51 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

David wrote:
Out of curiosity, for all those who ardently support racial vilification laws, what do you believe is the extent to which free speech should be curtailed? Is it any speech that could cause harm, or speech that feeds into oppression? Do you think you would you be likely to favour further restrictions if proposed (if the goal were, say, protection of minorities or further prosecution of bigotry)?


I think the current laws, which have been in force for 20-odd years now and are working well, have got the balance right. Any less protection would be to wink at and encourage bullying and abuse and very cruel treatment of innocent people for no good purpose. A new law to make harmful speech of any kind illegal (as you suggest) would be unworkable in practice and a significant threat to both liberty and democracy. It has taken us almost 200 years to get this stuff right. When you have got it right, leave the bloody thing alone!

_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives!
Back to top  
View user's profile Send private message  
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nick's Collingwood Bulletin Board Forum Index -> Victoria Park Tavern All times are GMT + 10 Hours

Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 5 of 10   

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum



Privacy Policy

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group