New refugee laws
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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This is just going to go around in circles again based on people's personal opinion.
For all the emotive labelling about people fleeing persecution, the fact that is constantly ignored (deliberately) is that just about 100% of the Asylum Seekers attempting to come here by boat from Indonesia have already escaped persecution.. They've left their homeland and made their way to Indonesia and now they're choosing to pay people smugglers to bring them to Australia by boat rather than choosing to apply for refugee status through the preferred channels and they do this in a deliberate attempt to circumvent our immigration and refugee intake processes.
Are they legitimate refugees? I don't know but one thing i do know is that they have demonstrated financial means far in excess of those still stuck in either their country or in resettlement camps.
Who is in the greatest most urgent need? Those stuck in camps or those who have the means to travel to different countries and pay smugglers?
All the bleeding hearts crying foul about this are acting as the people smugglers unpaid lobby group.
Lets make sure that our refugee resettlement processes are based on bringing in those in the greatest need, not those with the greatest capacity to pay.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ so what about those that arrive by plane then?
Aren't they circumventing the system - get a Visa, pay for and get on a plane - claim asylum when you land?
Or those that overstay their Visa and stay illegally?
Surely these people are also "jumping the queue" not following process and getting in in front of those stuck in refugee camps??
Why is it only "boat people" - I really don't get this - plane trips don't come cheap!!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Plane tickets may not come cheap but they're a hell of a lot cheaper than what people were paying to the People Smugglers, and that's after they already paid for plane tickets to get them to Indonesia in the first place.
So you tell me, if the plane lurk was that simple, why so many people paying heaps more to get on a barely seaworthy boat?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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Apply for a 457.
Once here apply for Permanent Residency.
If they are a couple only one applies for Citizenship, the other keeps their original Citizenship but stays on as a PR.
Where do all these jobs for the 457's come from, from all the industries where Permanent Part Time is the employment status. Very few are employed on a fulltime basis anymore. It's all a fraud that the people of this country have fallen for. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Nothing i know about how a 457 visa works makes sense of that.
The rules are actually quite strict about getting 457 visas including needing an employer and having to meet no disadvantage tests to ensure they are getting paid the same as an Australian in the same job.
If people are rorting it, it's only because the audit checks aren't working and Labor had years to fix them.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| That is a hypothetical question. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
Nothing i know about how a 457 visa works makes sense of that.
The rules are actually quite strict about getting 457 visas including needing an employer and having to meet no disadvantage tests to ensure they are getting paid the same as an Australian in the same job.
If people are rorting it, it's only because the audit checks aren't working and Labor had years to fix them. |
Well Tony has had almost 18 months. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
And in that time, to the best of my knowledge, bugger all about the 457 process or requirements has been changed.
To be fair, I haven't looked recently though.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | This is just going to go around in circles again based on people's personal opinion.
For all the emotive labelling about people fleeing persecution, the fact that is constantly ignored (deliberately) is that just about 100% of the Asylum Seekers attempting to come here by boat from Indonesia have already escaped persecution.. They've left their homeland and made their way to Indonesia and now they're choosing to pay people smugglers to bring them to Australia by boat rather than choosing to apply for refugee status through the preferred channels and they do this in a deliberate attempt to circumvent our immigration and refugee intake processes.
Are they legitimate refugees? I don't know but one thing i do know is that they have demonstrated financial means far in excess of those still stuck in either their country or in resettlement camps.
Who is in the greatest most urgent need? Those stuck in camps or those who have the means to travel to different countries and pay smugglers?
All the bleeding hearts crying foul about this are acting as the people smugglers unpaid lobby group.
Lets make sure that our refugee resettlement processes are based on bringing in those in the greatest need, not those with the greatest capacity to pay. |
Let's just make sure they comply with our international obligations. Those are not matters of opinion. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| stui magpie wrote: | For all the emotive labelling about people fleeing persecution, the fact that is constantly ignored (deliberately) is that just about 100% of the Asylum Seekers attempting to come here by boat from Indonesia have already escaped persecution.. They've left their homeland and made their way to Indonesia and now they're choosing to pay people smugglers to bring them to Australia by boat rather than choosing to apply for refugee status through the preferred channels and they do this in a deliberate attempt to circumvent our immigration and refugee intake processes.
Are they legitimate refugees? I don't know but one thing i do know is that they have demonstrated financial means far in excess of those still stuck in either their country or in resettlement camps.
Who is in the greatest most urgent need? Those stuck in camps or those who have the means to travel to different countries and pay smugglers?
All the bleeding hearts crying foul about this are acting as the people smugglers unpaid lobby group.
Lets make sure that our refugee resettlement processes are based on bringing in those in the greatest need, not those with the greatest capacity to pay. |
Bugger me, Stui Magpie, just when I have decided that you really are a bit dim, you come out with a post like that. Never mind that I agree with you all the way through, never mind that you express yourself with masterly clarity and readability, you have marshaled the key points into a concise and compelling argument. Bravo sir!
(PS. Not that that will stop me ripping your daft posts over on the other thread comprehensively into shreds, of course, nor should it. But not tonight, Josephine. I have too much else to do first.  )
(PPS: I see the Bleeding Heart SBS Propaganda Nazi crowd is still pretending that we have a treaty obligation to offer residency to to people who have already escaped persecution and then arrive here via a third country. They consistently and apparently deliberately choose to ignore the explicit proviso in the treaty that it applies to people "directly" fleeing persecution, not to every Tom, Dick and Harry. There is an escape clause there (the wording of which evades my memory at the moment) which the BHSPNs rely on the way a drunk clings to an empty bottle - and will doubtless cite before too long - but it is perfectly clear that it applies only to incidental travel through a third country, certainly not to this caper of travelling half-way across the world through any number of other places to get to Indonesia so that you can get on a boat there and come to Australia or New Zealand or any other rich country that seems like a good idea at the time.)
(PPPS: the paperwork requirements - visas and ID documentation and so on - for air travel are significant. This is why people with (a) dodgy claims or (b) missing paperwork (or both) try travel by boat instead: they don't qualify for a visa so they can't get on a plane. Their claim - and undoubtedly it's true for a significant number of them - is that the key bits of paperwork are confiscated by authorities in their country of origin or one of the various intervening countries they travel through with the deliberate aim of making it hard for them to get to somewhere like Australia and claim refugee status. Hence the boat trip. Of course, if you are not a genuine refugee and want to lie and cheat your way into Australia, the first thing you do is destroy your paperwork, or at least some of it, so that you look more like the genuine article.)
(PPPPS: 457s are a rolling disgrace. Labor did bugger all to stop the abuse of them, and the Liberals (under both Howard and Abbott) even less. Truth be told, neither party wants to offend Gina, and Gina wants as many as possible so that she can pay them less, and avoid paying even one extra penny to train Australian apprentices instead. Stui's bleating about the "no disadvantage" test is just that: bleating. In reality, 457 holders have the sword of repatriation hanging over their heads, a 24/7 major threat to their livelihood, and can usually be relied upon to do more for less bnecause of that threat. Plus - a lovely bonus for Gina here - the mere the threat of wheeling in yet more planeloads of 457s is a very handy tool for bludgeoning pay cuts and condition deletions for Australian workers, who face the dole if Gina gets her way. For her, it's heads I win, tails you lose.)
(PPPPPS. Doubtless full of typos. I'm too tired to read this over, so I skipped it. I recommend that you do too.)
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^What a Pharisaical interpretation of the convention; as if it rests on the term "directly"; as if by virtue of a geographic technicality Australia gets to wash its hands of global people movements; as if access to smuggling fees is a proxy for freedom from persecution; as if you or anyone knows in advance who is more or less "worthy" of asylum.
You sound like the fundamentalist Libertarians who want to rid the nation of the menace of the social safety net because the "those undeserving so-and-sos" are taking advantage of it.
And how ironic you Godwinise the matter through the term "Nazi", when this very treaty was a response to a circumstance where fleeing "directly" according to your definition was not a guarantee of safe asylum.
Do you really need that much control over national identity that you're willing to become wedged into a trite, syllogistic approach to a complex human problem, based on a hopeless overstretch of your knowledge and experience? Let's face it, you wouldn't know the first thing about the lives of these people or any others related to the matter.
I am reminded of an old quote I read somewhere:
"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in."
There are infinitely more important issues to direct your energies towards than picking through miserable lives in search of "worthiness" and propagandising on behalf of the Tony Abbott racist hate strategy in advance of the next election.
We know Stui never leaves his backyard and sees Tony Abbott as a True Aussie Bloke (TM) like himself, but what about this issue incites you to so much border patrolling? Who do you think you're saving from what?
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| The real problem with Tannin's "interpretation" is that it rests on article 31, which simply doesn't have the scope he would wish for it. One can argue about whether or not Australia should continue to accept its obligations under the Convention or resile from them but one simply cannot pretend that the Convention has some more limited application. As I have already said, the proposition is unarguable - I mean that in its literal sense, not as hyperbole. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| Tannin wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | For all the emotive labelling about people fleeing persecution, the fact that is constantly ignored (deliberately) is that just about 100% of the Asylum Seekers attempting to come here by boat from Indonesia have already escaped persecution.. They've left their homeland and made their way to Indonesia and now they're choosing to pay people smugglers to bring them to Australia by boat rather than choosing to apply for refugee status through the preferred channels and they do this in a deliberate attempt to circumvent our immigration and refugee intake processes.
Are they legitimate refugees? I don't know but one thing i do know is that they have demonstrated financial means far in excess of those still stuck in either their country or in resettlement camps.
Who is in the greatest most urgent need? Those stuck in camps or those who have the means to travel to different countries and pay smugglers?
All the bleeding hearts crying foul about this are acting as the people smugglers unpaid lobby group.
Lets make sure that our refugee resettlement processes are based on bringing in those in the greatest need, not those with the greatest capacity to pay. |
Bugger me, Stui Magpie, just when I have decided that you really are a bit dim, you come out with a post like that. Never mind that I agree with you all the way through, never mind that you express yourself with masterly clarity and readability, you have marshaled the key points into a concise and compelling argument. Bravo sir!
(PS. Not that that will stop me ripping your daft posts over on the other thread comprehensively into shreds, of course, nor should it. But not tonight, Josephine. I have too much else to do first. )
(PPS: I see the Bleeding Heart SBS Propaganda Nazi crowd is still pretending that we have a treaty obligation to offer residency to to people who have already escaped persecution and then arrive here via a third country. They consistently and apparently deliberately choose to ignore the explicit proviso in the treaty that it applies to people "directly" fleeing persecution, not to every Tom, Dick and Harry. There is an escape clause there (the wording of which evades my memory at the moment) which the BHSPNs rely on the way a drunk clings to an empty bottle - and will doubtless cite before too long - but it is perfectly clear that it applies only to incidental travel through a third country, certainly not to this caper of travelling half-way across the world through any number of other places to get to Indonesia so that you can get on a boat there and come to Australia or New Zealand or any other rich country that seems like a good idea at the time.)
(PPPS: the paperwork requirements - visas and ID documentation and so on - for air travel are significant. This is why people with (a) dodgy claims or (b) missing paperwork (or both) try travel by boat instead: they don't qualify for a visa so they can't get on a plane. Their claim - and undoubtedly it's true for a significant number of them - is that the key bits of paperwork are confiscated by authorities in their country of origin or one of the various intervening countries they travel through with the deliberate aim of making it hard for them to get to somewhere like Australia and claim refugee status. Hence the boat trip. Of course, if you are not a genuine refugee and want to lie and cheat your way into Australia, the first thing you do is destroy your paperwork, or at least some of it, so that you look more like the genuine article.)
(PPPPS: 457s are a rolling disgrace. Labor did bugger all to stop the abuse of them, and the Liberals (under both Howard and Abbott) even less. Truth be told, neither party wants to offend Gina, and Gina wants as many as possible so that she can pay them less, and avoid paying even one extra penny to train Australian apprentices instead. Stui's bleating about the "no disadvantage" test is just that: bleating. In reality, 457 holders have the sword of repatriation hanging over their heads, a 24/7 major threat to their livelihood, and can usually be relied upon to do more for less bnecause of that threat. Plus - a lovely bonus for Gina here - the mere the threat of wheeling in yet more planeloads of 457s is a very handy tool for bludgeoning pay cuts and condition deletions for Australian workers, who face the dole if Gina gets her way. For her, it's heads I win, tails you lose.)
(PPPPPS. Doubtless full of typos. I'm too tired to read this over, so I skipped it. I recommend that you do too.) |
Take note gentlemans. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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The boats haven't stopped.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/11/scott-morrison-may-gloat-but-asylum-seekers-take-more-boats-than-ever
| Quote: | According to the UNHCR report on Irregular Maritime Movements in South-East Asia, over 50,000 people set sail just from the Bay of Bengal area in January-November 2014. The smugglers operating in the region move people who are trafficked as well as those paying for passage outside of legal migration channels. The latter includes people such as ethnic Rohingya who do not have any nationality (and therefore no official travel documentation) and have a long history of persecution and discrimination by the Burmese government.
The UNHCR estimates that around 21,000 people have departed from the Bangladesh-Burmese maritime border in the two months of October and November 2014. About 10% were women, and around one-third of arrivals interviewed by UNHCR in Thailand and Malaysia were minors. The numbers for October 2014 are a marked increase (37%) from the year before.
And not all the deaths at sea are merely from drowning, according to the report:
One in every three interviewees said at least one other passenger on their boat died en route; one in every 10 said 10 or more people died on board. Deaths were attributed to severe beatings by the crew, lack of food and water, illness, and heat.
Globally, around 350,000 people have risked it all by taking a boat this year. On 10-11 December 2014, UNHCR is hosting a meeting looking specifically at protection at sea. The non-governmental organisations taking part have recommended, among other things, that to implement effective protection and ensure safety at sea, it is vital to address route causes and root causes of forced and dangerous migration.
UNHCR notes that these reasons for irregular movement include: conflict and war, protracted refugee situations, statelessness, the absence or inadequacy of protection systems, family separation, poverty and economic inequality.
What is notably absent from all the recommendations to stop the boats from these experts is deterrence, which in Morrisons parlance is also known as taking the sugar off the table. This was of course the honourable ministers reasoning last month for reducing the number of refugees Australia would resettle from Indonesia and banning those who registered with UNHCR in Indonesia after 1 July 2014 from ever getting to Australia.
Sweet though that poison may be (and poisonous is certainly how one can characterise the way Australia treats those who come across the sea), no refugee is paying a people smuggler for any sort of benefit other than getting the hell out of the hell they were in. |
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Looks like now they're fleeing persecution in Burma and landing in Malaysia and Thailand. Much shorter journeys and they're not then paying again to come here. The boats might not have stopped, but they've stopped coming here and that's saved lives. Whatever stupid politics are being played is not important to me, but the lives saved by the 'tough love' approach are.
To me the courses of action should be to improve refugee processing and acceptance in SE Asia/Asia, take in a decent amount from long term camps (greatly increase humanitarian intake) and cut voluntary immigration by at a minimum the same amount (I'd prefer far more refugees and far less 'others'). |
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