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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| laird wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | laird wrote: | To those stating such things as how many Christians do or do not believe in intelligent design or how many Christians are such and such, follow such and such or do this or that.
How many of the many millions of Christians from all over the world, are you familiar with?
How many do you know personally? How many of these Christian households are you visiting? How many Christian churches, church services have you attended recently, ever?
Please stop trying to tell us how many of this or who believes what or what this or that Christian practices or does not practice.
You simply do not have a clue.
And trust me, wikipedia do not know either. |
All Christians are not the same Laird as all Muslims are not the same.
What exactly don't I have a clue about in terms of Christianity? Be specific because your words are very general. You found god in a personal way - good luck to you. I studied comparative religion at Uni, I listen regality to the religion report on radio national, & other religious programmes on Radio national & over time have done quite a lot of reading about religion especially christianity. I'm a regular listener to the religion show on Sat night on ABC local radio.
Does that make me more expert than you? No it doesn't
Does that make you more expert than me because you found god ? No it doesn't.
Now be specific with your question because your generalisation can also be said to reflect certain assumptions where you might not know as much as you seem to suggest. |
You do not have a clue how many or how few Christians believe in Intelligent design.
You do not have a clue how many Christians do this or do that etc etc.
Do not know why you want to turn this into a pissing contest about who knows more etc.
I do not have a clue how many Christians believe in this or that, think this or that or practice this or that.
Anyone would have to be a farkwit to think they know.
Mate, what I do know is what I know. I could not give a rats what you do or do not know.
It is of zero concern to me.
If you can tell me how many Christians, for example, believe in Intelligent design ( with proof), then great.
I do not know- that is why I do not say such foolish things. |
Intelligent design. Bingo.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Doc63 wrote: | | David wrote: | | Having said that, I'm disappointed by the fact that no-one has criticised the insidious title of this thread, which implies that this crime can be attributed to Islam per se and not extreme Jihadism. |
Even by your lofty standards, this is pure, unadulterated tripe.
Just what religion were they representing? Mormon?, Scientology, Jedi?
They were Muslim Extremists, just like 9/11, Sydney & Bali. The sooner everyone just comes out and says it the better. If that results in persecution of Muslims, tough titties.
Islam is not a religion of peace (granted, not many are), it is a religion on murder and hate. |
You've read through this entire thread and mine is the post you pull out as "pure, unadulterated tripe"? Hilarious. But then, given the keyboard salad you served up in the last two paragraphs, I guess I should take it as a compliment.
No-one is denying that these extremists are Muslim. The rather more complex problem, one that most of the pitchfork-wielders here haven't even bothered to consider, is where to attribute responsibility when a small percentage of a social group are causing havoc. Do you say that there is something fundamentally wrong with Muslims and Islam because these atrocities keep happening? Do you say that Australians are fundamentally racist because a minority keep saying and doing racist things? Do you say that all men are evil misogynists because a minority of men hit, rape and/or kill women? Or do you try to distinguish between the terrorist minority and the peaceful majority, or the racist minority and the tolerant majority, or the misogynistic minority and the respectful majority, and so on?
I'm not sure, exactly, but I think we have to lean towards the latter because, at the end of the day, it's fundamentally unjust to punish innocent people for the actions of others. Also, because it's idiotic to blame the actions of a few on an entire (in this case, highly diverse) group. Also, because even the most elementary reading on this subject would show that the problem isn't Muslims or Islam per se, but the cultural and socioeconomic conditions that are bringing out fundamentalist interpretations of Islam in certain quarters. This is so much more than just another black mark against "the religion of peace"; rather, this horrific episode is part of a much more specific phenomenon.
That doesn't mean that we should be blind to problems where we see themyes, radical Islam is a problem, and yes, it is an Islamic problembut what you have to realise is that the Pollyanna approach is no more naive than a lot of the anti-Islamic sentiment expressed in this thread. Terribly, dangerously naive.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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laird
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Location: Perth
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| laird wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | laird wrote: | To those stating such things as how many Christians do or do not believe in intelligent design or how many Christians are such and such, follow such and such or do this or that.
How many of the many millions of Christians from all over the world, are you familiar with?
How many do you know personally? How many of these Christian households are you visiting? How many Christian churches, church services have you attended recently, ever?
Please stop trying to tell us how many of this or who believes what or what this or that Christian practices or does not practice.
You simply do not have a clue.
And trust me, wikipedia do not know either. |
All Christians are not the same Laird as all Muslims are not the same.
What exactly don't I have a clue about in terms of Christianity? Be specific because your words are very general. You found god in a personal way - good luck to you. I studied comparative religion at Uni, I listen regality to the religion report on radio national, & other religious programmes on Radio national & over time have done quite a lot of reading about religion especially christianity. I'm a regular listener to the religion show on Sat night on ABC local radio.
Does that make me more expert than you? No it doesn't
Does that make you more expert than me because you found god ? No it doesn't.
Now be specific with your question because your generalisation can also be said to reflect certain assumptions where you might not know as much as you seem to suggest. |
You do not have a clue how many or how few Christians believe in Intelligent design.
You do not have a clue how many Christians do this or do that etc etc.
Do not know why you want to turn this into a pissing contest about who knows more etc.
I do not have a clue how many Christians believe in this or that, think this or that or practice this or that.
Anyone would have to be a farkwit to think they know.
Mate, what I do know is what I know. I could not give a rats what you do or do not know.
It is of zero concern to me.
If you can tell me how many Christians, for example, believe in Intelligent design ( with proof), then great.
I do not know- that is why I do not say such foolish things. |
For the record, in the past 4 years, I have studied in depth many religions. I have travelled for Christian purposes to 12 countries. I have stayed with or visited hundreds of Christian households/ environments. I have spoken and listened the entire time.
Nothing has been more important to me. Nothing at all.
Does this mean I know more than you? Of course not. I apologise if I came across that way.
As a Christian, the last thing I want is to upset/piss off/ put down anyone.
If you feel I have done any of the above, I sincerely apologise mate.
Never my intention.
_________________
" Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye" ? |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Laird, if you're not careful the good Lord will strike you down for being too nice!
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Many thanks to the likes of WPT and David for maintaining fairness and discipline of analysis.
Fairness and discipline: A new year's resolution!
Fairness begins with granting all information of the same type equal weight, whether be the acts of fundamentalist, extremist Muslims (or psychiatric cases who identify themselves as Muslims), or the horrors of child rape by mystical, twisted Christian narcissists who eschew healthy human relationships (or psychiatric cases who identify themselves Christians). Or by focusing not just on Arab-Muslim populations, but also on say the 90% self-identified Christian population of Latin America, with its outrageous levels of homicide, rape, misogyny and gang violence. Or by checking in on the violent progress of gay persecuting, fanatical Ugandan Christian sects more often. Or the ongoing problem all around us of those who would corruptly use their undemocratic influence to damage national revenue streams, and then pay PR firms to blame certain powerless others for the problem. And so on.
If you're over-focusing your rage on one sub-group, or one identity-associated problem to begin with, no matter how shocking, you're already misleading people. Right from the get-go. You're deceiving people, even if by accident or bad methodology because you're over-focusing on one aspect of the world at the expense of other aspects.
Discipline is having the control to play the numbers, no matter how many reality-distorting, populist images people flash before your eyes, and now matter how excited others get.
I didn't post yesterday in order to uphold my resolution, so if I can do it, there's hope for us all!
Fairness meant I couldn't overreact to the initial news and interpretations thereof from a narrow range of shrill sources. Discipline meant I had to bite my tongue and not waste my resources on the loudest reactions, no matter how deceptive or irresponsible.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | It's a terrible attack on freedom of speech and political/artistic expression. Despite the reservations expressed in the article WPT quoted, I can't help but hope that satirical publications around the world double down on their satirical depictions of Mohammed and Islam. If this is to be a war between free satire and terrorism, then it's urgent that we throw our support behind the former and don't raise the white flag. There's safety in numbers.
Having said that, I'm disappointed by the fact that no-one has criticised the insidious title of this thread, which implies that this crime can be attributed to Islam per se and not extreme Jihadism. This ignores the fact that the victims of the vast majority of these appalling crimes (such as the attack on the school in Pakistan) are Muslims. Ordinary Muslims are not the enemy; they are on our side in the fight against these extremists, just as these extremists are willing to kill, maim and terrorise anyone who doesn't subscribe to their very narrow ideology (Christian, Muslim and Atheist alike). Failing to understand that will only lead to more tension, more violence and more victims on all sides. |
A good post, David, as ever, but I think with a false dichotomy. There are layered issues here : Jihadism, Salafism, Islam, and individual Muslims. The moral responsibility for what happened yesterday lies with those who committed the atrocity. It is clearly not with any uninvolved Muslim individual.
Yet that is not to fully exonerate Islam, which has a very large salafist sect - rooted in the Middle East, Nigeria and Pakistan - that has clearly become a gangster factory for religious hatred and violence across the world. Despite the various attempts at false equivalence being made, I see no comparable sect or action within Christianity, or Hinduism, or Buddhism.
Muslims and non-Muslims need to confront this fanatical nihilism within Islam, and the roots of it in much Salafist teaching and practice, and we need to discourage expression of those unreformed brands of Islam in our societies. It goes against our tolerant grain, but the deaths on our civilian streets are now too many to ignore, and it is nearly certain that there wil be many more, and worse, atrocities to come unless we assertively control it.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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So I bet I'm not the only one to consider you all "good men" but are we doing nothing as we post here!
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | It's a terrible attack on freedom of speech and political/artistic expression. Despite the reservations expressed in the article WPT quoted, I can't help but hope that satirical publications around the world double down on their satirical depictions of Mohammed and Islam. If this is to be a war between free satire and terrorism, then it's urgent that we throw our support behind the former and don't raise the white flag. There's safety in numbers.
Having said that, I'm disappointed by the fact that no-one has criticised the insidious title of this thread, which implies that this crime can be attributed to Islam per se and not extreme Jihadism. This ignores the fact that the victims of the vast majority of these appalling crimes (such as the attack on the school in Pakistan) are Muslims. Ordinary Muslims are not the enemy; they are on our side in the fight against these extremists, just as these extremists are willing to kill, maim and terrorise anyone who doesn't subscribe to their very narrow ideology (Christian, Muslim and Atheist alike). Failing to understand that will only lead to more tension, more violence and more victims on all sides. |
A good post, David, as ever, but I think with a false dichotomy. There are layered issues here : Jihadism, Salafism, Islam, and individual Muslims. The moral responsibility for what happened yesterday lies with those who committed the atrocity. It is clearly not with any uninvolved Muslim individual.
Yet that is not to fully exonerate Islam, which has a very large salafist sect - rooted in the Middle East, Nigeria and Pakistan - that has clearly become a gangster factory for religious hatred and violence across the world. Despite the various attempts at false equivalence being made, I see no comparable sect or action within Christianity, or Hinduism, or Buddhism.
Muslims and non-Muslims need to confront this fanatical nihilism within Islam, and the roots of it in much Salafist teaching and practice, and we need to discourage expression of those unreformed brands of Islam in our societies. It goes against our tolerant grain, but the deaths on our civilian streets are now too many to ignore, and it is nearly certain that there wil be many more, and worse, atrocities to come unless we assertively control it. |
That's the crux of it for me, it's a whole different ball game when they start bringing it to the normal everyday city streets, this isn't a war zone, neither is Paris. And neither was New York City of London.
I don't believe any religion is evil. As has been pointed out and argued to the death many painful times in various threads, you can read whatever you want into whatever you read. People are not a religion. People are just people. And they use things like religion, or anti government sentiment as an excuse to do heinous evil things.
It's unfortunate if a few good Muslim feel pressure, but we need to get the evil out of our country, and they are unfortunately hiding in plain sight, using good people as shields. The Muslim population needs to let us know, loud and clear, they ain't hiding them.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| think positive wrote: | | The Muslim population needs to let us know, loud and clear, they ain't hiding anymore. |
That edit is my view anyway. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | It's a terrible attack on freedom of speech and political/artistic expression. Despite the reservations expressed in the article WPT quoted, I can't help but hope that satirical publications around the world double down on their satirical depictions of Mohammed and Islam. If this is to be a war between free satire and terrorism, then it's urgent that we throw our support behind the former and don't raise the white flag. There's safety in numbers.
Having said that, I'm disappointed by the fact that no-one has criticised the insidious title of this thread, which implies that this crime can be attributed to Islam per se and not extreme Jihadism. This ignores the fact that the victims of the vast majority of these appalling crimes (such as the attack on the school in Pakistan) are Muslims. Ordinary Muslims are not the enemy; they are on our side in the fight against these extremists, just as these extremists are willing to kill, maim and terrorise anyone who doesn't subscribe to their very narrow ideology (Christian, Muslim and Atheist alike). Failing to understand that will only lead to more tension, more violence and more victims on all sides. |
A good post, David, as ever, but I think with a false dichotomy. There are layered issues here : Jihadism, Salafism, Islam, and individual Muslims. The moral responsibility for what happened yesterday lies with those who committed the atrocity. It is clearly not with any uninvolved Muslim individual.
Yet that is not to fully exonerate Islam, which has a very large salafist sect - rooted in the Middle East, Nigeria and Pakistan - that has clearly become a gangster factory for religious hatred and violence across the world. Despite the various attempts at false equivalence being made, I see no comparable sect or action within Christianity, or Hinduism, or Buddhism.
Muslims and non-Muslims need to confront this fanatical nihilism within Islam, and the roots of it in much Salafist teaching and practice, and we need to discourage expression of those unreformed brands of Islam in our societies. It goes against our tolerant grain, but the deaths on our civilian streets are now too many to ignore, and it is nearly certain that there wil be many more, and worse, atrocities to come unless we assertively control it. |
I see your point, but wouldn't it be slightly ironic for us to respond to an attack on freedom of one kind of speech by clamping down on another kind?
Of course, encouraging and inciting others to commit violence is already against the law, and extremist hate-preaching would fall under that category. But beyond that, I'm not quite sure what sort of control you're proposing. It goes without saying that we need to be very cautious when it comes to signing away civil liberties.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | It's a terrible attack on freedom of speech and political/artistic expression. Despite the reservations expressed in the article WPT quoted, I can't help but hope that satirical publications around the world double down on their satirical depictions of Mohammed and Islam. If this is to be a war between free satire and terrorism, then it's urgent that we throw our support behind the former and don't raise the white flag. There's safety in numbers.
Having said that, I'm disappointed by the fact that no-one has criticised the insidious title of this thread, which implies that this crime can be attributed to Islam per se and not extreme Jihadism. This ignores the fact that the victims of the vast majority of these appalling crimes (such as the attack on the school in Pakistan) are Muslims. Ordinary Muslims are not the enemy; they are on our side in the fight against these extremists, just as these extremists are willing to kill, maim and terrorise anyone who doesn't subscribe to their very narrow ideology (Christian, Muslim and Atheist alike). Failing to understand that will only lead to more tension, more violence and more victims on all sides. |
A good post, David, as ever, but I think with a false dichotomy. There are layered issues here : Jihadism, Salafism, Islam, and individual Muslims. The moral responsibility for what happened yesterday lies with those who committed the atrocity. It is clearly not with any uninvolved Muslim individual.
Yet that is not to fully exonerate Islam, which has a very large salafist sect - rooted in the Middle East, Nigeria and Pakistan - that has clearly become a gangster factory for religious hatred and violence across the world. Despite the various attempts at false equivalence being made, I see no comparable sect or action within Christianity, or Hinduism, or Buddhism.
Muslims and non-Muslims need to confront this fanatical nihilism within Islam, and the roots of it in much Salafist teaching and practice, and we need to discourage expression of those unreformed brands of Islam in our societies. It goes against our tolerant grain, but the deaths on our civilian streets are now too many to ignore, and it is nearly certain that there wil be many more, and worse, atrocities to come unless we assertively control it. |
I see your point, but wouldn't it be slightly ironic for us to respond to an attack on freedom of one kind of speech by clamping down on another kind?
Of course, encouraging and inciting others to commit violence is already against the law, and extremist hate-preaching would fall under that category. But beyond that, I'm not quite sure what sort of control you're proposing. It goes without saying that we need to be very cautious when it comes to signing away civil liberties. |
gees David, do they need to put it in writing? don't have a joke on us in anyway shape or form, but we can diss you anytime we want!!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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The details would need to be worked out, and i would happily commission that from moderate Muslim scholars. The controls would involve registering preachers and Imams, licensing mosques, and controlling the nature of teachings within them so that these were religious, and non-political. I would also make the viewing of any jihadist material in the internet a criminal act much as we treat paedophilia. Let's start there.
We are clearly in an ideological low-level war unlike anything we have seen before, and civil liberties are always circumscribed where the public good demands it. After London, Paris, New York, Toronto, Madrid, Brussels, Nairobi, Lagos, Mumbai and so many other places, the case for action is more than clear., and more of the same - which is what politicians are suggesting - will not do. We do not need to hinder moderate Islam, and we must respect and join with those who want peace and civil integration.... but we must silence the posionous ideology for the sake of all, mulsims and non-muslims alike. Otherwise this is going to unleash the kind of violent, polarised, extremist backlash that the killers want.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | The details would need to be worked out, and i would happily commission that from moderate Muslim scholars. The controls would involve registering preachers and Imams, licensing mosques, and controlling the nature of teachings within them so that these were religious, and non-political. I would also make the viewing of any jihadist material in the internet a criminal act much as we treat paedophilia. Let's start there.
We are clearly in an ideological low-level war unlike anything we have seen before, and civil liberties are always circumscribed where the public good demands it. After London, Paris, New York, Toronto, Madrid, Brussels, Nairobi, Lagos, Mumbai and so many other places, the case for action is more than clear., and more of the same - which is what politicians are suggesting - will not do. We do not need to hinder moderate Islam, and we must respect and join with those who want peace and civil integration.... but we must silence the posionous ideology for the sake of all, mulsims and non-muslims alike. Otherwise this is going to unleash the kind of violent, polarised, extremist backlash that the killers want. |
great post
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| In that case: Where would you rather be going? |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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somewhere warm, dry, and free of terrorists
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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