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Nick - Pie Man
Joined: 04 Aug 2010
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thebaldfacts
Joined: 02 Aug 2007
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Warren Mundine this morning on the Bolt report explained why the term ape is so racist to aborigines. Said that for hundreds of years, aborigines were treated as sub human as the missing link between apes and humans.
Hence the reason why they find it so offensive.
So refreshing that Mundine, an aboriginal himself describes clearly and succinctly the issue.
Full credit to Warren. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| David wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | David wrote: | | ^ What makes you think he wouldn't be appalled by that, too? Goodes is fighting against racism last time I checked, not picking and choosing what is and isn't. |
You might have heard otherwise but I have not heard Goodes mention even ONE example of racism from indigenous persons towards others mate. If you have solid evidence of this, please quote him by all means and I shall happily stand corrected.  |
Um, what? Why would he have to? In what context?
If you think there's as much racism directed towards whites as there is towards Aboriginal people (and that one has as much impact as the other) then I have a bridge to sell you. In Bendigo.  |
Well you might want to walk on the bridge with me if you like, or even get Mr Goodes two shoes to join us. I'm a dark skinned person who has been racially abused by indigenous people more than any other persons. Do you want me to merely deny this or sugar coat it for your tastes? Blame others for what I experienced?
You might think that being called a coconut many times by indigenous people is not racist (brown on the outside but white on the inside) but quite a few others think it is. It didn’t really worry me one little bit at the time but since this is a discussion on racism, I want to provide some evidence that racism is NOT only white on black/brown nonsense. It happens from indigenous folk as well and that too is wrong. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| David wrote: | | Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that. |
The point I'm making is not about you mate but Goodes. I would have loved Goodes to clearly state univocally that ALL racism was bad. Admit that it happens from his own community as well. Anyone reading all the shit over the last week would only get the impression that racism against the indigenous folk was bad. That is utter bullshit.
And it is very hard for you or anyone else to gauge the effect of racism of anyone, whatever colour, nationality or culture they are from. Some of the very worst racism I have read about has been directed at Asians in America perpetrated by African Americans.
BTW, African Americans calling each other ni---r annoys me too.......I find that a case of blatant bloody double standards. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| Lazza wrote: | | David wrote: | | Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that. |
The point I'm making is not about you mate but Goodes. I would have loved Goodes to clearly state univocally that ALL racism was bad. Admit that it happens from his own community as well. Anyone reading all the shit over the last week would only get the impression that racism against the indigenous folk was bad. That is utter bullshit.
And it is very hard for you or anyone else to gauge the effect of racism of anyone, whatever colour, nationality or culture they are from. Some of the very worst racism I have read about has been directed at Asians in America perpetrated by African Americans.
BTW, African Americans calling each other ni---r annoys me too.......I find that a case of blatant bloody double standards. |
TOO True Lazza mate, and when I first heard my youngest sons hip hop/Rap songs, sung by BLACK Americans, screaming out the dreadful N - word, which they used to despise whites saying in the 60s etc, I did a big double take and got the shock of me life. ! Calling each other mother-fcking N-----, yer could have knocked me down with a feather. !! 
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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King Malta 
RIP Flip
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Location: Gettin' Wiggy
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | David wrote: | | Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that. |
The point I'm making is not about you mate but Goodes. I would have loved Goodes to clearly state univocally that ALL racism was bad. Admit that it happens from his own community as well. Anyone reading all the shit over the last week would only get the impression that racism against the indigenous folk was bad. That is utter bullshit.
And it is very hard for you or anyone else to gauge the effect of racism of anyone, whatever colour, nationality or culture they are from. Some of the very worst racism I have read about has been directed at Asians in America perpetrated by African Americans.
BTW, African Americans calling each other ni---r annoys me too.......I find that a case of blatant bloody double standards. |
TOO True Lazza mate, and when I first heard my youngest sons hip hop/Rap songs, sung by BLACK Americans, screaming out the dreadful N - word, which they used to despise whites saying in the 60s etc, I did a big double take and got the shock of me life. ! Calling each other mother-damn N-----, yer could have knocked me down with a feather. !! |
It's been documented (and is public knowledge in America) that African Americans began calling each other that term years ago 'to take the power out of the word'. A strategy which I personally feel is quite admirable.
Apparently they felt that if they used to word to refer to each other they would take away the satisfaction that people got from using it to abuse them. It still doesn't change the fact that a white person directing the word in an abusive way towards them is a throwback to an era where they were treated as a sub-human form of property for white people.
I honestly don't see how that can upset you at all. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | David wrote: | | Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that. |
The point I'm making is not about you mate but Goodes. I would have loved Goodes to clearly state univocally that ALL racism was bad. Admit that it happens from his own community as well. Anyone reading all the shit over the last week would only get the impression that racism against the indigenous folk was bad. That is utter bullshit.
And it is very hard for you or anyone else to gauge the effect of racism of anyone, whatever colour, nationality or culture they are from. Some of the very worst racism I have read about has been directed at Asians in America perpetrated by African Americans.
BTW, African Americans calling each other ni---r annoys me too.......I find that a case of blatant bloody double standards. |
TOO True Lazza mate, and when I first heard my youngest sons hip hop/Rap songs, sung by BLACK Americans, screaming out the dreadful N - word, which they used to despise whites saying in the 60s etc, I did a big double take and got the shock of me life. ! Calling each other mother-damn N-----, yer could have knocked me down with a feather. !! |
Mate if a word like the N word is regarded as being racially offensive, it shouldn’t matter a bloody fig WHO it comes from. If it depends on WHO says it, I would argue very strongly that this exercise itself is selective racism.
All I have heard over the past week are more and more dreadful examples of blatant double standards Piesnchess, of which I have had a gutful. The media are the worst offenders, followed closely by some of the accusers themselves. As if no one in the bloody media ever had a slip of the tongue or said something they regretted a minute later! Mate I have done that a hundred times but have had the balls to admit it for what it was - a simple mistake...... 
The last perfect person I know was hung on a cross but I never realised there were so many perfect people in the media....
The sooner the silly nongs here recognise this particular issue the better. This current debate is NOT seriously about racism, it is just another avenue for the usual bastards to bash Eddie, Collingwood and anyone connected with Collingwood.   |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| King Malta wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | David wrote: | | Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that. |
The point I'm making is not about you mate but Goodes. I would have loved Goodes to clearly state univocally that ALL racism was bad. Admit that it happens from his own community as well. Anyone reading all the shit over the last week would only get the impression that racism against the indigenous folk was bad. That is utter bullshit.
And it is very hard for you or anyone else to gauge the effect of racism of anyone, whatever colour, nationality or culture they are from. Some of the very worst racism I have read about has been directed at Asians in America perpetrated by African Americans.
BTW, African Americans calling each other ni---r annoys me too.......I find that a case of blatant bloody double standards. |
TOO True Lazza mate, and when I first heard my youngest sons hip hop/Rap songs, sung by BLACK Americans, screaming out the dreadful N - word, which they used to despise whites saying in the 60s etc, I did a big double take and got the shock of me life. ! Calling each other mother-damn N-----, yer could have knocked me down with a feather. !! |
It's been documented (and is public knowledge in America) that African Americans began calling each other that term years ago 'to take the power out of the word'. A strategy which I personally feel is quite admirable.
Apparently they felt that if they used to word to refer to each other they would take away the satisfaction that people got from using it to abuse them. It still doesn't change the fact that a white person directing the word in an abusive way towards them is a throwback to an era where they were treated as a sub-human form of property for white people.
I honestly don't see how that can upset you at all. |
Mate however way you dress it up, it IS a case of double standards. If a African American is only selectively offended depending on who says the word, I find that extremely odd. If someone abused me racially, it wouldn't matter a jot who abused me......... |
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Stupied
Joined: 14 Mar 2013
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| David wrote: | | Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that. |
Jesus Christ, you're so PC that you're calling a straw-man argument a straw-person argument.... Just wow...
Also you just displayed blatant double standards. If you're going to take a stand against racism, go for your life, but stand against all forms of racism. You can't say that one type of racism is not as bad as another, it just makes you a hypocrite. |
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King Malta
RIP Flip
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Location: Gettin' Wiggy
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| Lazza wrote: | | King Malta wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | David wrote: | | Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that. |
The point I'm making is not about you mate but Goodes. I would have loved Goodes to clearly state univocally that ALL racism was bad. Admit that it happens from his own community as well. Anyone reading all the shit over the last week would only get the impression that racism against the indigenous folk was bad. That is utter bullshit.
And it is very hard for you or anyone else to gauge the effect of racism of anyone, whatever colour, nationality or culture they are from. Some of the very worst racism I have read about has been directed at Asians in America perpetrated by African Americans.
BTW, African Americans calling each other ni---r annoys me too.......I find that a case of blatant bloody double standards. |
TOO True Lazza mate, and when I first heard my youngest sons hip hop/Rap songs, sung by BLACK Americans, screaming out the dreadful N - word, which they used to despise whites saying in the 60s etc, I did a big double take and got the shock of me life. ! Calling each other mother-damn N-----, yer could have knocked me down with a feather. !! |
It's been documented (and is public knowledge in America) that African Americans began calling each other that term years ago 'to take the power out of the word'. A strategy which I personally feel is quite admirable.
Apparently they felt that if they used to word to refer to each other they would take away the satisfaction that people got from using it to abuse them. It still doesn't change the fact that a white person directing the word in an abusive way towards them is a throwback to an era where they were treated as a sub-human form of property for white people.
I honestly don't see how that can upset you at all. |
Mate however way you dress it up, it IS a case of double standards. If a African American is only selectively offended depending on who says the word, I find that extremely odd. If someone abused me racially, it wouldn't matter a jot who abused me......... |
It's got nothing to do with double standards mate.
Double standards would be: Only whites can be racist, no other race can be racist towards whites. That's not what the above is about at all. The above is about a group of people trying to take the hurt and power out of an abusive word. That doesn't change the fact that calling them the 'n word' is still a serious insult, due to it's original use, and the connotations it carries.
If someone racially abuses another person, it's racism, it doesn't matter what race you are, and it's NEVER okay. Every aboriginal person that has racially abused you has been in the wrong, but that doesn't mean that Goodes should be unable to stand up and make a point that racial abuse is not ok. He shouldn't have to clarify it with 'oh, and also, that goes for aboriginals abusing whites too, kay?' |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| King Malta wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | King Malta wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | David wrote: | | Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that. |
The point I'm making is not about you mate but Goodes. I would have loved Goodes to clearly state univocally that ALL racism was bad. Admit that it happens from his own community as well. Anyone reading all the shit over the last week would only get the impression that racism against the indigenous folk was bad. That is utter bullshit.
And it is very hard for you or anyone else to gauge the effect of racism of anyone, whatever colour, nationality or culture they are from. Some of the very worst racism I have read about has been directed at Asians in America perpetrated by African Americans.
BTW, African Americans calling each other ni---r annoys me too.......I find that a case of blatant bloody double standards. |
TOO True Lazza mate, and when I first heard my youngest sons hip hop/Rap songs, sung by BLACK Americans, screaming out the dreadful N - word, which they used to despise whites saying in the 60s etc, I did a big double take and got the shock of me life. ! Calling each other mother-damn N-----, yer could have knocked me down with a feather. !! |
It's been documented (and is public knowledge in America) that African Americans began calling each other that term years ago 'to take the power out of the word'. A strategy which I personally feel is quite admirable.
Apparently they felt that if they used to word to refer to each other they would take away the satisfaction that people got from using it to abuse them. It still doesn't change the fact that a white person directing the word in an abusive way towards them is a throwback to an era where they were treated as a sub-human form of property for white people.
I honestly don't see how that can upset you at all. |
Mate however way you dress it up, it IS a case of double standards. If a African American is only selectively offended depending on who says the word, I find that extremely odd. If someone abused me racially, it wouldn't matter a jot who abused me......... |
It's got nothing to do with double standards mate.
Double standards would be: Only whites can be racist, no other race can be racist towards whites. That's not what the above is about at all. The above is about a group of people trying to take the hurt and power out of an abusive word. That doesn't change the fact that calling them the 'n word' is still a serious insult, due to it's original use, and the connotations it carries.
If someone racially abuses another person, it's racism, it doesn't matter what race you are, and it's NEVER okay. Every aboriginal person that has racially abused you has been in the wrong, but that doesn't mean that Goodes should be unable to stand up and make a point that racial abuse is not ok. He shouldn't have to clarify it with 'oh, and also, that goes for aboriginals abusing whites too, kay?' |
So what you are saying is that if the indigenous players referred to each other as apes, that will take the hurt and power out of the word so it won’t be as abusive to the point where Goodes nearly didn’t play football last weekend??? I can’t see that logic but you seem better educated on me on this hurt and power lessening word issue dude.
Easy solution to the problem…………..Get Krak to call Goodes an ape next time they play |
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King Malta
RIP Flip
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Location: Gettin' Wiggy
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| Lazza wrote: | | King Malta wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | King Malta wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | David wrote: | | Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that. |
The point I'm making is not about you mate but Goodes. I would have loved Goodes to clearly state univocally that ALL racism was bad. Admit that it happens from his own community as well. Anyone reading all the shit over the last week would only get the impression that racism against the indigenous folk was bad. That is utter bullshit.
And it is very hard for you or anyone else to gauge the effect of racism of anyone, whatever colour, nationality or culture they are from. Some of the very worst racism I have read about has been directed at Asians in America perpetrated by African Americans.
BTW, African Americans calling each other ni---r annoys me too.......I find that a case of blatant bloody double standards. |
TOO True Lazza mate, and when I first heard my youngest sons hip hop/Rap songs, sung by BLACK Americans, screaming out the dreadful N - word, which they used to despise whites saying in the 60s etc, I did a big double take and got the shock of me life. ! Calling each other mother-damn N-----, yer could have knocked me down with a feather. !! |
It's been documented (and is public knowledge in America) that African Americans began calling each other that term years ago 'to take the power out of the word'. A strategy which I personally feel is quite admirable.
Apparently they felt that if they used to word to refer to each other they would take away the satisfaction that people got from using it to abuse them. It still doesn't change the fact that a white person directing the word in an abusive way towards them is a throwback to an era where they were treated as a sub-human form of property for white people.
I honestly don't see how that can upset you at all. |
Mate however way you dress it up, it IS a case of double standards. If a African American is only selectively offended depending on who says the word, I find that extremely odd. If someone abused me racially, it wouldn't matter a jot who abused me......... |
It's got nothing to do with double standards mate.
Double standards would be: Only whites can be racist, no other race can be racist towards whites. That's not what the above is about at all. The above is about a group of people trying to take the hurt and power out of an abusive word. That doesn't change the fact that calling them the 'n word' is still a serious insult, due to it's original use, and the connotations it carries.
If someone racially abuses another person, it's racism, it doesn't matter what race you are, and it's NEVER okay. Every aboriginal person that has racially abused you has been in the wrong, but that doesn't mean that Goodes should be unable to stand up and make a point that racial abuse is not ok. He shouldn't have to clarify it with 'oh, and also, that goes for aboriginals abusing whites too, kay?' |
So what you are saying is that if the indigenous players referred to each other as apes, that will take the hurt and power out of the word so it won’t be as abusive to the point where Goodes nearly didn’t play football last weekend??? I can’t see that logic but you seem better educated on me on this hurt and power lessening word issue dude.
Easy solution to the problem…………..Get Krak to call Goodes an ape next time they play |
You're a good poster, and obviously this isn't a personal thing, but it seems like we're just going around in circles here. One of my constant points in this whole mess is that it's difficult to judge exactly what an individual is feeling unless we're experiencing the abuse in from the same position as they are (so to speak).
I'm no more educated than you are about the issue, I'm telling you what I've heard said on more than one occasion in regards to that word. I have no idea what an aboriginals feeling's are in regards to being called an 'ape', but clearly they don't find it appropriate, as demonstrated by Adam Goodes and Daniel Wells (those are the two reactions I have heard of, there are probably more).
Besides, why does it bother you so much? Would you like to call a black person N*****? Would it make you feel better if you could? A group of people who's ancestors lived through some of the most inexcusable atrocities ever perpetrated upon one group of people have formed a way of dealing with the abuse and hurt caused by that word, What impact does that have on you, or my lifelife?
I know you probably don't mean it deliberately, but there are some people on here who almost seem as if they're trying to deflect all the blame for this back on to the people who are being abused. Why does this all of a sudden become a matter of 'well they do it to us all the time' or 'well they get to use that word, why can't we?'
Adam Goodes was abused using a word that has racist connotations (whether the young girl knew it or not), he was offended, he called her out, he accepted her apology. Eddie made an ill-advised comment about such incident, Adam was upset, Adam did not accuse Eddie of being a racist...the media rolled with all that underlying crap, Eddie apologised and as far as we know, Adam accepted it.
The above is the situation in a nut-shell for me (regarding the aspects of the situation that Adam Goodes could control/was directly affected by anyway). As far as I'm concerned, there's a lesson in this for everybody; word's have an impact, sometimes in ways that you're not aware. Rather than get upset and defensive about it, let's embrace that fact, and understand and acknowledge that some words have a greater impact when used in a certain way, or towards a certain individual or group.
Or better yet, we could just not abuse each other at all, but we all know that's not happening any time soon. |
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joffa corfe
PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 13 Nov 2003
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For what it's worth todays article by Andrew Bolt 3/6/13 was disgraceful and proves we all have a long long way to go!!
_________________
Football is Greatness
http://youtu.be/tJwoKbPOsQE |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Stupied wrote: | | David wrote: | | Yeah, but this is all just a straw-person argument. I never said that racism is only perpetrated by whites against dark-skinned folk. Of course Aboriginal people can be racist. I strongly doubt, however, that racism against whites in this country has as much impact as racism against Aboriginal people and those of other ethnicities. I don't see how your experience contradicts that. |
Jesus Christ, you're so PC that you're calling a straw-man argument a straw-person argument.... Just wow...
Also you just displayed blatant double standards. If you're going to take a stand against racism, go for your life, but stand against all forms of racism. You can't say that one type of racism is not as bad as another, it just makes you a hypocrite. |
No it doesn't. How can you possibly say that all forms of racism are equal? It's like saying slapping someone in the face and king-hitting them are just as bad as each other because they're both forms of assault. And stating as much isn't in any way a justification for slapping people.
If you think being called a 'cracker' or some other racial slur directed at white people is generally anywhere near as harmful as the worst kinds of racial abuse, then you clearly don't accept that racism can be harmful at all. Which makes a lot of sense, given your argument.
Edit: well posted, King Malta.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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