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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | You're fond of pointing to the number of muslims in the world compared to the other religions when talking about the number of terrorist acts.
How many terrorist acts have been committed globally by non=muslims in the last 2 decades? |
I don't see the connection between these two things. Yes, the percentage of the world Muslim population involved in terror activity in any way is infinitesimally small. Even if 100% of the world's terror attacks were committed by Muslims, that would still be true.
Seeing as you've asked, though, the answer is a lot:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html
| Quote: | Let’s start with Europe. Want to guess what percent of the terrorist attacks there were committed by Muslims over the past five years? Wrong. That is, unless you said less than 2 percent.
As Europol, the European Union’s law-enforcement agency, noted in its report released last year, the vast majority of terror attacks in Europe were perpetrated by separatist groups. For example, in 2013, there were 152 terror attacks in Europe. Only two of them were “religiously motivated,” while 84 were predicated upon ethno-nationalist or separatist beliefs.
We are talking about groups like France’s FLNC, which advocates an independent nation for the island of Corsica. In December 2013, FLNC terrorists carried out simultaneous rocket attacks against police stations in two French cities. And in Greece in late 2013, the left-wing Militant Popular Revolutionary Forces shot and killed two members of the right-wing political party Golden Dawn. While over in Italy, the anarchist group FAI engaged in numerous terror attacks including sending a bomb to a journalist. And the list goes on and on.
Have you heard of these incidents? Probably not. But if Muslims had committed them do you think you our media would’ve covered it? No need to answer, that’s a rhetorical question.
...
Have you heard about the Buddhist terrorists? Well, extremist Buddhists have killed many Muslim civilians in Burma, and just a few months ago in Sri Lanka, some went on a violent rampage burning down Muslim homes and businesses and slaughtering four Muslims.
Or what about the (dare I mention them) Jewish terrorists? Per the 2013 State Department’s report on terrorism, there were 399 acts of terror committed by Israeli settlers in what are known as “price tag” attacks. These Jewish terrorists attacked Palestinian civilians causing physical injuries to 93 of them and also vandalized scores of mosques and Christian churches.
Back in the United States, the percentage of terror attacks committed by Muslims is almost as miniscule as in Europe. An FBI study looking at terrorism committed on U.S. soil between 1980 and 2005 found that 94 percent of the terror attacks were committed by non-Muslims. In actuality, 42 percent of terror attacks were carried out by Latino-related groups, followed by 24 percent perpetrated by extreme left-wing actors. |
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WTF?????
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| Right Wing Governments will be elected more and more. Refugees will be kicked out and denied entry. No money for foreign aid which will create more division and unite Islam. A caliphate will happen. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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Stui, in regard to the bolded section, you can find a list of attacks in the US here:
https://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publications/terrorism-2002-2005#terror_05sum
| Mugwump wrote: | | Pakistan's North west has problems but most of Pakistan is quite safe. It seems strange to seek asylum in Germany in that context. |
If you're a refugee in North Waziristan, I'm not sure how much comfort it is to know that the rest of Pakistan isn't going that badly. The article in the Guardian states that 1.2 million Pakistanis have been displaced. That's a lot of people. Why would it be any stranger for a refugee from that part of the world to seek asylum in Germany than a refugee from Afghanistan, Nigeria or South Sudan?
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | Pakistan's North west has problems but most of Pakistan is quite safe. It seems strange to seek asylum in Germany in that context. |
If you're a refugee in North Waziristan, I'm not sure how much comfort it is to know that the rest of Pakistan isn't going that badly. The article in the Guardian states that 1.2 million Pakistanis have been displaced. That's a lot of people. Why would it be any stranger for a refugee from that part of the world to seek asylum in Germany than a refugee from Afghanistan, Nigeria or South Sudan? |
1.2 million is a lot of people. So is 180 million, the population of Pakistan. Why would you go to Germany rather than the 99% of your country that is apparently safe ? I think the fact that refugees from Afghanistan, Nigeria and Pakistan - all countries thousands of miles from Germany, all with relatively safe areas internally - are all trying to get to Germany says much about the motivation, and the way that asylum has become synonymous with migration, to the great cost of those really seeking asylum.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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You're presuming that safe passage or resettlement is actually available. As you say, Afghanistan does have safe areas; so why are 1.5 million Afghans camping out across the border in Pakistan? Hell, even Syria has places where no conflict has occurred. Clearly it's nowhere near as simple as you make it out to be.
If we're quibbling about whether migrants in Germany from that part of the world could be real refugees, then I hope we've put that issue to bed. Some may well not be, but at least some undoubtedly are. Whether those refugees could or should be settling in countries of transit, and whether their inability to do so no longer means they're "really" seeking asylum, is a different question. I think international refugee laws are fairly clear on this.
By the way, in regard to this earlier post:
| Mugwump wrote: | ^ David, firstly you might quote fatalities rather than number of attacks if you wish to make a persuasive case.
Secondly, what happens in (say) Myanmar has a very different context to what happens on the streets of London, New York. Paris. Berlin. Brussels Boston Madrid Ankara Nice etc (referencing only the more mass-scale nihilistic murders). you may not see a disturbing pattern, but then, false equivalence makes patterns very difficult to spot. |
I was asked and answered a direct question: "How many terrorist acts have been committed globally by non-muslims in the last 2 decades?". If you want to shift the goalposts, that's fine, but I'm not the one asserting any false equivalences here.
Otherwise, I agree that a terror attack in Nice by someone acting on the orders of a foreign terrorist network is different to terrorist acts committed as part of a sectarian conflict in Myanmar. Indeed, I've tried to make this very point with Skids in the past when he was posting lists that included such sectarian violence in majority Muslim countries as evidence of an Islamic agenda to destroy the world. On the other hand, pointing out Burmese attacks demonstrates that modern terrorism is not a uniquely Islamist phenomenon.
The question depends upon what exact point we're trying to make and why we're choosing to consider some incidents and not others. What, precisely, are you seeking to demonstrate here?
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Well either I'm reading that wrong or the FBI has a different definition of terrorism. I mean, The Animal Liberation Front and the Earth Liberation front are terrorist organisations? 
And the bolded bit said "Extreme left wing actors". I'm sure they can make some pretty shit movies but that shouldn't really qualify as a terrorist act unless they kidnap people at gunpoint and make them watch them.
When I asked for a comparison on terrorist acts, I meant acts of violence that involve fatalities, real and intended, wounded and/or loss of liberty (kidnapping for terrorist purposes), not making shit movies or attempting to set fire to a barn to free chickens.
To be fair, I didn't define that and you found a set of data that supported your opinion. Well done.
I'm not interested in getting into a semantic battle redefining words so I'll let it go. Your opinion is set, your reality is formed. It's a different reality to mine but that's cool.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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I don't think anything compares to Islam if you compare apples with apples.
Jihad Report
November, 2016
Attacks 231
Killed 2008
Injured 3082
Suicide Blasts 27
Countries 29
Jihad Report
Dec 10, 2016 -
Dec 16, 2016
Attacks 44
Killed 449
Injured 360
Suicide Blasts 5
Countries 12
Since Setember 11 Islamic terrorists have carried out more than 29,962 deadly terror attacks.
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ David, the terrorism under discussion in this thread obviously relates to nihilistic murder on the streets that you and I and my children inhabit. It is clearly the terrorism that Stui was talking about. There is, as he rightly points out, almost no terrorism of this nature which is perpetrated by non-Muslims. You can no doubt seek to mitigate and deflect it by arguing that other people commit terrorism in different places and very different contexts. It is such a clear act of deflection, however, that I can only ask your question back - "what precisely are you seeking to demonstrate?" - because it looks as though you are seeking a kind of extenuation or mitigation for the greatest acts of mass murder ever to happen in our civil history. If these were conducted by white extremists I doubt that you would be so keen on finding other examples of similar acts in Myanmar.
Similarly, if you cannot see the problem with 1% of people being displaced in a country where 99% are not, and then these people finding their way to a wealthy foreign country 5000 miles away to seek asylum, then it would seem to be because you do not wish to. There is nothing oversimplifying in suggesting that there is something wrong with this picture. If your side of politics continues to countenance the abuse of the asylum system for the purposes of elective immigration, then you fail genuine asylum seekers who flee from conflict to a nearby safe space. The fact that much of European and Australian public opinion is now turning against asylum as it sees it as equivalent to immigration is the very sad and dangerous and anti-humanitarian legacy of this elision.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| stui magpie wrote: |
Well either I'm reading that wrong or the FBI has a different definition of terrorism. I mean, The Animal Liberation Front and the Earth Liberation front are terrorist organisations?
And the bolded bit said "Extreme left wing actors". I'm sure they can make some pretty shit movies but that shouldn't really qualify as a terrorist act unless they kidnap people at gunpoint and make them watch them.
When I asked for a comparison on terrorist acts, I meant acts of violence that involve fatalities, real and intended, wounded and/or loss of liberty (kidnapping for terrorist purposes), not making shit movies or attempting to set fire to a barn to free chickens.
To be fair, I didn't define that and you found a set of data that supported your opinion. Well done.
I'm not interested in getting into a semantic battle redefining words so I'll let it go. Your opinion is set, your reality is formed. It's a different reality to mine but that's cool. |
Quite evidently if you think the term "extreme left-wing actors" is referring to George Clooney and Susan Sarandon! The word 'actor' in this context refers to anyone who commits, say, terrorist acts – it didn't cross my mind that it could have other connotations. I now understand your initial reaction, at any rate. 
Look, I'm not the one who decides what the FBI considers a terrorist organisation. The Animal Liberation Front have planted bombs and burned down buildings, but given that they've apparently never killed or injured anyone, I agree that they're probably more in the realm of pre-prison Nelson Mandela than Al-Qaeda.
But even if you only include groups or individuals that have killed or maimed people for political purposes, you're still looking at 44 separate terrorist incidents on US soil in the time period listed, and only a small handful of those have been committed by Islamists (September 11 obviously being the big one that dwarfs all others). We'd find similar statistics around the world if you look at groups like the Basque separatist movement and other internecine conflicts. Islamist terrorism has dominated the headlines of late, but it doesn't mean it's the only kind of terrorism currently existing in the world now or in the recent past. An important thing to acknowledge, no?
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Last edited by David on Fri Dec 23, 2016 8:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ David, the terrorism under discussion in this thread obviously relates to nihilistic murder on the streets that you and I and my children inhabit. It is clearly the terrorism that Stui was talking about. There is, as he rightly points out, almost no terrorism of this nature which is perpetrated by non-Muslims. You can no doubt seek to mitigate and deflect it by arguing that other people commit terrorism in different places and very different contexts. It is such a clear act of deflection, however, that I can only ask your question back - "what precisely are you seeking to demonstrate?" - because it looks as though you are seeking a kind of extenuation or mitigation for the greatest acts of mass murder ever to happen in our civil history. If these were conducted by white extremists I doubt that you would be so keen on finding other examples of similar acts in Myanmar.
Similarly, if you cannot see the problem with 1% of people being displaced in a country where 99% are not, and then these people finding their way to a wealthy foreign country 5000 miles away to seek asylum, then it would seem to be because you do not wish to. There is nothing oversimplifying in suggesting that there is something wrong with this picture. If your side of politics continues to countenance the abuse of the asylum system for the purposes of elective immigration, then you fail genuine asylum seekers who flee from conflict to a nearby safe space. The fact that much of European and Australian public opinion is now turning against asylum as it sees it as equivalent to immigration is the very sad and dangerous and anti-humanitarian legacy of this elision. |
Your first sentence is a clear example of the goalpost-shifting I was referring to. The terrorism under discussion in this thread has primarily revolved around the lists of incidents being posted by Skids – the vast majority of which occur within the bounds of Muslim-majority nations, and are thus no more relevant to the streets that we live in than Buddhist atrocities against Rohingyas.
It's fine if you want to talk about only terrorist attacks in Western nations not currently plagued by separatist conflicts (we might refer to this as internationalised terrorism). We can have that conversation. It's probably the only kind of terrorism that prevents an immediate threat to us here in Australia. But if you dont't acknowledge the wider context of those acts, and you define terrorism as "only terrorism that occurs in Western countries", then you're probably not getting the full picture.
On your second paragraph, I suspect you know little about precisely what barriers Pakistani asylum seekers might face at home or what conditions might lead them to seek a better life elsewhere. If a refugee is resettled in a slum 500 kilometres from where they live, in a province where nobody speaks the same language, where they face the prospect of disease and starvation or violence and discrimination because of their ethnicity or outsider status, are they no longer a refugee?
There's also the question of whether the Pakistani asylum seekers entering Germany had already fled their homelands before Germany's open border policy was announced. What could have motivated them to make such a long and dangerous trip without the promise of that particular carrot on a stick?
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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It's a lot easier to monitor nutters if you have control of your borders!
Seven arrested as police foil planned Christmas Day terror attack in Melbourne
A Christmas Day terrorist plot targeting Melbourne landmarks has been foiled after police conducted raids across the city's north west.
Seven people have been arrested and five are in custody stopping what police chief commissioner Graham Ashton said was a potential multimodal attack at Federation Square, Flinders Street Station and St Paul's Cathedral.
Police said these men were Australian-born and in their 20s - except for one Egyptian-born man. Police said some had a Lebanese background.
Chief Commissioner Ashton said police executed search warrants in Flemington, Meadow Heights, Dallas, Campbellfield and Gladstone Park overnight.
"These individuals have been persons of interest for some period of time," he said. "They're people we have been concerned about for a period of time."
He said intelligence led police to step-up their investigation in the past fortnight
There was no suggestion of international assistance to suspected terrorists, police said.
The raid found evidence an improvised explosive device was being constructed
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/seven-arrested-as-police-foil-planned-christmas-day-terror-attack-in-melbourne-20161222-gtgz90.html
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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There are times like these when I question my previous opposition to data retention, etc. Good work by the police in preventing this.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| Morrigu wrote: | It's a lot easier to monitor nutters if you have control of your borders!
Seven arrested as police foil planned Christmas Day terror attack in Melbourne
A Christmas Day terrorist plot targeting Melbourne landmarks has been foiled after police conducted raids across the city's north west.
Seven people have been arrested and five are in custody stopping what police chief commissioner Graham Ashton said was a potential multimodal attack at Federation Square, Flinders Street Station and St Paul's Cathedral.
Police said these men were Australian-born and in their 20s - except for one Egyptian-born man. Police said some had a Lebanese background.
Chief Commissioner Ashton said police executed search warrants in Flemington, Meadow Heights, Dallas, Campbellfield and Gladstone Park overnight.
"These individuals have been persons of interest for some period of time," he said. "They're people we have been concerned about for a period of time."
He said intelligence led police to step-up their investigation in the past fortnight
There was no suggestion of international assistance to suspected terrorists, police said.
The raid found evidence an improvised explosive device was being constructed
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/seven-arrested-as-police-foil-planned-christmas-day-terror-attack-in-melbourne-20161222-gtgz90.html |
Seven people were arrested overnight at properties in Flemington, Meadow Heights and Dallas in Melbourne over the alleged plot, which police said was inspired by the Islamic State (IS) group
http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/seven-held-over-alleged-christmas-day-terrorist-plot-in-melbourne/ar-BBxsuoy?li=AAgfYrC&OCID=HPCDHP
Wow... what a surprise
Letting all this <snip> in will eventually lead to massive bloodshed on our shores.
The bleeding hearts are responsible for this.
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ David, the terrorism under discussion in this thread obviously relates to nihilistic murder on the streets that you and I and my children inhabit. It is clearly the terrorism that Stui was talking about. There is, as he rightly points out, almost no terrorism of this nature which is perpetrated by non-Muslims. You can no doubt seek to mitigate and deflect it by arguing that other people commit terrorism in different places and very different contexts. It is such a clear act of deflection, however, that I can only ask your question back - "what precisely are you seeking to demonstrate?" - because it looks as though you are seeking a kind of extenuation or mitigation for the greatest acts of mass murder ever to happen in our civil history. If these were conducted by white extremists I doubt that you would be so keen on finding other examples of similar acts in Myanmar.
Similarly, if you cannot see the problem with 1% of people being displaced in a country where 99% are not, and then these people finding their way to a wealthy foreign country 5000 miles away to seek asylum, then it would seem to be because you do not wish to. There is nothing oversimplifying in suggesting that there is something wrong with this picture. If your side of politics continues to countenance the abuse of the asylum system for the purposes of elective immigration, then you fail genuine asylum seekers who flee from conflict to a nearby safe space. The fact that much of European and Australian public opinion is now turning against asylum as it sees it as equivalent to immigration is the very sad and dangerous and anti-humanitarian legacy of this elision. |
Your first sentence is a clear example of the goalpost-shifting I was referring to. The terrorism under discussion in this thread has primarily revolved around the lists of incidents being posted by Skids – the vast majority of which occur within the bounds of Muslim-majority nations, and are thus no more relevant to the streets that we live in than Buddhist atrocities against Rohingyas.
It's fine if you want to talk about only terrorist attacks in Western nations not currently plagued by separatist conflicts (we might refer to this as internationalised terrorism). We can have that conversation. It's probably the only kind of terrorism that prevents an immediate threat to us here in Australia. But if you dont't acknowledge the wider context of those acts, and you define terrorism as "only terrorism that occurs in Western countries", then you're probably not getting the full picture.
On your second paragraph, I suspect you know little about precisely what barriers Pakistani asylum seekers might face at home or what conditions might lead them to seek a better life elsewhere. If a refugee is resettled in a slum 500 kilometres from where they live, in a province where nobody speaks the same language, where they face the prospect of disease and starvation or violence and discrimination because of their ethnicity or outsider status, are they no longer a refugee?
There's also the question of whether the Pakistani asylum seekers entering Germany had already fled their homelands before Germany's open border policy was announced. What could have motivated them to make such a long and dangerous trip without the promise of that particular carrot on a stick? |
Between the shifting goalposts and the level of deflection, we're not in danger of landing anything in the net. If your point is that terrorism worldwide is not exclusively a Muslim phenomenon, then that is clearly true. I think it is irrelevant to the question of how to manage Islam within Western societies given this ideology's amply demonstrated tendency to cause mass murder in our society.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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