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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: |
Speaking of fairytales, you seem to have swallowed a pretty good one there. I think I posted a statistic a while back that known members of Islamic extremist groups account for something like 0.02% of the world's Muslim population. So, essentially you're defaming something like a billion people. |
What percentage of White Americans belong to the Ku Klux Klan?
What percentage of Americans authorised the bombing of Japan in WWII?
Very flimsy argument David.
How bout finding a stat about what percentage of Muslims live in countries where the laws are based on Islam, where women are oppressed and those Muslims have no need to do anything that could have them labelled as an extremist but they would not be allowed to practice that lifestyle in a Western country? |
^ That last paragraph is a bit confusing, but if I understand you correctly then I think you need to be careful not to conflate extremist sympathies (i.e. support for international terrorism) with acceptance of a status quo that we might consider backward or oppressive. The two are very different, as I'm sure you understand.
I'm not sure of what the statistics are beyond what I've looked up previously. But even if Jezza's link is right (I haven't had time to look in detail) and as many as a quarter of Muslims in some parts of the world have a positive view of al-Qaeda, that still renders Skids's statement (i.e. all Muslims are violent and dangerous) stupid, ignorant and defamatory. And yes, "Americans are racist" would be an equally idiotic statement.
| think positive wrote: | But since you so like to pull out lines form stories, while ignoring the pure horror of the whole context, you know, like you did with the grey hound thread, how about you answer this rheotoric question:
Can you imagine the outcry if 21 Muslims had been beheaded by Christians? |
Uh, yeah. It'd be ... about the same as the outcry right now over this.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/may/08/2
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/16/craig-hicks-indicted-over-north-carolina-shooting-of-three-muslim-students
(that second one was a white American atheist, but you get the gist)
Here are some Muslim responses while we're at it:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/15/isis-post-video-allegedly-showing-mass-beheading-of-coptic-christian-hostages
http://www.keyt.com/news/local-muslims-react-to-latest-isis-brutality/31304522
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/15/us-mideast-crisis-libya-egypt-idUSKBN0LJ10D20150215
Fair enough that you can't be bothered spending 30 seconds on Google like I just did. But I'm confused as to why you (or the writer of the article) would think that there isn't an international outcry over this atrocity; that somehow we're giving ISIS a free pass because "they're only Christians". Feel free to point me to a single defence, justification or mitigation of ISIS's behaviour on here or in the mainstream press, because I'm yet to see one.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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Jewish extremists: Want to pray on the Temple Mount.
Christian extremists: Dont want to bake same sex wedding cake.
Muslim extremists: Want to, and do decapitate people they dont like.
Leftist extremists: Cant see the difference and choose to side with and defend the decapitators.
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Genesis 1:1 |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: |
^ That last paragraph is a bit confusing, but if I understand you correctly then I think you need to be careful not to conflate extremist sympathies (i.e. support for international terrorism) with acceptance of a status quo that we might consider backward or oppressive. The two are very different, as I'm sure you understand.. |
Where I'm coming from is that there is a hell of a lot of people who identify as Muslim. The number of muslims in an actual extremist group is going to be a tiny fraction of the overall, because the majority of Muslims live in muslim states, under muslim law.
There's a large number who live peacefully in western countries no doubt, so saying that all muslims are terrorists etc is the same as saying all yanks are racist, agreed.
But, while I don't count those who sympathise with extremists as the same as the extremists, they are still a worry.
If you consider ISIS or Al Qaeda to be the template for extremist groups, the percentage of Christians who belong to extremist groups would be 0.00% . There is nothing comparable.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| Jezza wrote: | It's a long read but a fascinating article nevertheless and a highly recommended read for those interested in understanding this topic further! It's one of the most impressive and thorough articles I've seen about ISIS online since they started to become a big news story in the Western media from June last year.
It definitely ponders a lot of questions about how to stop this rise that has emerged in Syria and Iraq and could spread further into Libya and maybe Egypt potentially.
The article also explores the differences between ISIS and Al-Qaeda and how there internal conflicts between one another has allowed ISIS to grow to be the number one Sunni Jihadist group in the world eclipsing Al-Qaeda who's leadership and support network has declined since Bin-Laden's death. Most jihadists and sympathisers of this cause are more likely to align themselves with ISIS more than Al-Qaeda now demonstrating how this issue has evolved in the past decade or so.
http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/ |
Thanks for the link.
Excellent reading.
It's fair to say the IS ideology is the most dangerous we've seen since the rise of the Nazi party.
Thank God  they don't have the same capabilities of a nation state to invade by sea or air.
Heaven help us though if they ever get there hands on some weapons of mass destruction.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Jezza wrote: | Yes it's all well and good to criticise anti-Islamic propaganda but the very same people who do this don't seem all that concerned by the criticism of Christianity when acts are committed in their name. The double standards is astonishing to be honest.
The condemnation of the deaths of Coptic Christians at the hands of ISIS fighters in Libya needs to be overwhelmingly condemned by everyone especially by Muslims who want to distance themselves from such associations and to send out a strong message that this isn't a part of their religious make-up but the problem is though is that we're not seeing enough being done by Islamic communities to address these problems, and Islamic academics even admit that this is the case if you watch well-informed documentaries about Islamic extremism on YouTube. As a result this feeds into a level of mistrust between Muslims and Non-Muslims.
The Islamic State claims to be as Islamic as it comes and to a point they're not wrong here even though people are doing no favours by calling them "un-Islamic". ISIS follows a strict form of Sunni Islamism specifically Wahhabism so enough of this rhetoric that they are not Islamic and as such they're not a representation of the Islamic faith and Islamism.
In regards to this idea that 0.02% of the whole world Muslim population are fighting for ISIS this is true but what isn't being taken into account is how many Muslims either support or sympathise with ISIS' cause within areas they control or are fighting in and of course those living in Western secular democracies such as Australia, England and France for example. I suspect the overwhelming majority of Shia and Kurdish Muslims are against ISIS but the figure would be interesting amongst Sunni Muslims who make up the dominate sect of Islam and how many agree or sympathise with ISIS' cause to begin with.
The figures suggest that support for Al-Qaeda (a group similar to ISIS in many aspects barring a few small differences) is a minority in most Middle-Eastern and Muslim-dominated countries but it's not 1% as many are led to believe according to these figures conducted a few years back as the link below provides. The most frightening figure for mine is that 23% of Muslims surveyed in Indonesia have favourable attitudes towards Al-Qaeda so that's nearly one in four Muslims so this idea it's just less than 1% is a complete myth and needs to be busted now.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/ |
^ Thanks Jezza, that's important research, which has been replicated in other places. Only 50% of Muslims in Mulsim countries have an unfavourable view of the Taliban, and only 60% of Al Qaeda. This fellow-travelling behaviour is a major cause of the disquiet many of us feel about Islam because of the ideology that has infiltrated it.
I think it is justified to be concerned with the lack of Muslim leadership and public response to these atrocities. When the Iraq war was in contemplation, a million people marched in the "not in my name" rallies in Hyde Park. I cannot see any public demonstations or real initiatives by Western Muslims against the atrocities being conducted by extremists in the name of Islam.
Yes, there are differences, in that these groups like ISIS et al are not part of the democracy of the marchers - but some passionate, organised, public opposition to extremism by Western Muslims and religious leaders would mean a lot. There were no such serious demonstrations after New York 9/11 (which pre-dated the 2nd Iraq war), or after London 7/7, Atocha, Nairobi, Paris, Denmark etc. One wonders to what extent this reflects soft support for the distorted grievances and apologetics ("I don't support it but I can understand it") that underpin this twisted narrative.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Pa Marmo wrote: | Jewish extremists: Want to pray on the Temple Mount.
Christian extremists: Dont want to bake same sex wedding cake.
Muslim extremists: Want to, and do decapitate people they dont like.
Leftist extremists: Cant see the difference and choose to side with and defend the decapitators. |
Fundamentalism: The hyper-vigilant splitting of entities and relationships into idealised and devalued categories as an immature defense mechanism.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Pa Marmo wrote: | Jewish extremists: Want to pray on the Temple Mount.
Christian extremists: Dont want to bake same sex wedding cake.
Muslim extremists: Want to, and do decapitate people they dont like.
Leftist extremists: Cant see the difference and choose to side with and defend the decapitators. |
Fundamentalism: The hyper-vigilant splitting of entities and relationships into idealised and devalued categories as an immature defense mechanism. |
Hah, once again, you come in with the not so veiled insults (pardon the pun) once again you blindly stick up for David, who seems to just want to deliver a whole heap of white man guilt.
I'm not bothering to answer his post after mine, cos it's a waste of time. He twists everything to get a different meaning to suit his argument.
Read Stuis post, read it twice, it makes a hell of a lot of sense. And so does Jezzas.
My posting of that article, was purely because of the ISIS connection (oh lookie, that's the thread title) I'm not interested in starting a religious battle, I won't comparE gods or religion. ISIS are just using whatever book they are using as justification for using disgusting means to achieve the power they crave. No different from pol pot, a Colombian drug lord, or Saddam Hussein. Religion is not evil, but evil men twost meaning to fit their agenda. The Muslim faith, with its oppressive 'rules' and harsh punishments, and so many devout followers (how many real hard core Christians/Catholics are there these days) makes it easy for ISIS to be a fearsome enemy.
And now the reports are coming out about ISIS stealing human organs, dumping bodies in pits, and selling the organs on the black market to fund their war. David can pick out as many redneck articles as he wants, a few bogan ones too, but you won't find any that match the sheer horror of what is coming out of ISIS In the name of Islam.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| think positive wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | Pa Marmo wrote: | Jewish extremists: Want to pray on the Temple Mount.
Christian extremists: Dont want to bake same sex wedding cake.
Muslim extremists: Want to, and do decapitate people they dont like.
Leftist extremists: Cant see the difference and choose to side with and defend the decapitators. |
Fundamentalism: The hyper-vigilant splitting of entities and relationships into idealised and devalued categories as an immature defense mechanism. |
Hah, once again, you come in with the not so veiled insults (pardon the pun) once again you blindly stick up for David, who seems to just want to deliver a whole heap of white man guilt.
I'm not bothering to answer his post after mine, cos it's a waste of time. He twists everything to get a different meaning to suit his argument.
Read Stuis post, read it twice, it makes a hell of a lot of sense. And so does Jezzas.
My posting of that article, was purely because of the ISIS connection (oh lookie, that's the thread title) I'm not interested in starting a religious battle, I won't comparE gods or religion. ISIS are just using whatever book they are using as justification for using disgusting means to achieve the power they crave. No different from pol pot, a Colombian drug lord, or Saddam Hussein. Religion is not evil, but evil men twost meaning to fit their agenda. The Muslim faith, with its oppressive 'rules' and harsh punishments, and so many devout followers (how many real hard core Christians/Catholics are there these days) makes it easy for ISIS to be a fearsome enemy.
And now the reports are coming out about ISIS stealing human organs, dumping bodies in pits, and selling the organs on the black market to fund their war. David can pick out as many redneck articles as he wants, a few bogan ones too, but you won't find any that match the sheer horror of what is coming out of ISIS In the name of Islam. |
Oi, I was literally only responding to that one post because that's all I'd read! Defensive much!
But, now you mention it, bear with me a moment. This is not directed at anyone, it's just an explanation of why I mentioned the fundamentalist mind.
Fundamentalism has many faces. If you take its immature psychiatry, and place it in an extremely chaotic and unstable environment where human life is worth little, you get ISIS. If you put it in Australia where it is hemmed in by sane folk and has positive incentives, you get much more muted evils such as support for the sub-human treatment of asylum seekers, support for wars that kill hundreds of thousands of people, the punishment of low-income families, the stifling of the individuality of children, or discrimination against those who are simply "different".
If you watch carefully, you'll see the extremists in one context often incite the extremists in another context because they're mirror psychiatries on the same sort of emotional warpath. Thus, for example, the Israeli far right builds settlements in disputed areas just to aggravate and taunt their mirror psychiatries over the fence.
What tends to happen in situations of conflict is that the fundamentalists among us try to drag everyone else into their extreme interpretations of the world. And it's hard to resist when you're confronted with such gruesome imagery as heads being lopped off, feel threatened by terrorism, and so on. And of course they know that, which is partly what makes them such good missionaries.
But in the light of mature and disciplined reflection, they're wrong. For a start, we know people are never all bad or all good as the fundamentalist brain would have us believe. Humans are varied and complex creatures, and only a small percentage of humans are that bad they have to be kept away from the rest of society. But it's very hard to see that in other very confronting, chaotic and historically-removed environments.
In vastly different, unstable life situations, even mainstream average Joes will have very different values to our own. They may be far more used to barbarism, inured to cruelty of various kinds, apparently take death with a grain of salt, and so on. However, in their local context, they're still not ISIS. They may even not care very much for many of the victims of ISIS because they've grown up with such things, or some of the people ISIS kills are their own historical enemies, or whatever. But they're still not ISIS. They may look cruel to you, or seem insufficiently concerned to you, but in their local context they're normal folk.
However, the fundamentalists around us will try to convince us that all such people in that context, or of that very broad category, are the same. They will try to get us to categorise all other Muslims as more-or-less ISIS because they've been dying to control and condemn all Muslims as evil, and now's their chance! But, the fact is most people are just average Joes; everyone who lives in that context knows they're average Joes. We can't easily detect the difference, but if you lived in that context, you would know the difference. Even ISIS itself will be full of stupid young fools dragged into something beyond their control. In your context, they would be the equivalent of kids dragged into gangs or drugs.
Just think of Germany and Japan before and after WW2. In as little as a decade after Hiroshima, the very same people we were trying to kill one minute suddenly looked quite different. 25 years later they were unrecognisable. And Germany and Japan were tightly unified, single nations, whereas ISIS is one sub-group among many in its part of the world.
Wanting to stop ISIS is natural and obvious. Fine; we can all certainly agree with that sentiment (thought tactics are another matter). But taking leave of our senses and overreacting and killing average Joes who have simply grown up in the wrong place at the wrong time, or read the same book, or share some overlap of cultural form, is the stuff of genocide. It's not a minor thought error, it's an act of enormous gross negligence that could have murderous blowback and political ramifications well beyond anything that the whackos leading ISIS could dream up and inflict.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ "But taking leave of our senses and overreacting and killing average Joes who have simply grown up in the wrong place at the wrong time, or read the same book, or share some overlap of cultural form, is the stuff of genocide. It's not a minor thought error, it's an act of enormous gross negligence that could have murderous blowback and political ramifications well beyond anything that the whackos leading ISIS could dream up and inflict".
Sure - but who's proposing that ? Recognising that ISIS shoudl be destroyed is hardly the same thing as wanting to harm the average person. You may say that Iraq 2 was about killing average Joes, but whatever it was, that wasn't the stuff of genocide in my eyes. Stupid and reckless fanstasy, but not genocide, surely ?
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Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^What I meant was that's the sort of indiscriminate overreach you get with genocides: Kill the lot of 'em! They're all the same!
If you track the discourse, that sort of seductive fundamentalist thought process is being given way too much oxygen.
In fact, let me add if you think back to Afghanistan and Iraq, it was also present in the complete disregard for the geo-tribal diffusion of the former, and the highly predictable sectarian chaos of the latter. Not caring what happens to diverse peoples because you have mentally reduced them to more-or-less the same category as some target enemy really is on a par with genocide.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Ok, I better understand what you mean, thanks.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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| pietillidie wrote: | ^What I meant was that's the sort of indiscriminate overreach you get with genocides: Kill the lot of 'em! They're all the same!
If you track the discourse, that sort of seductive fundamentalist thought process is being given way too much oxygen.
In fact, let me add if you think back to Afghanistan and Iraq, it was also present in the complete disregard for the geo-tribal diffusion of the former, and the highly predictable sectarian chaos of the latter. Not caring what happens to diverse peoples because you have mentally reduced them to more-or-less the same category as some target enemy really is on a par with genocide. |
your full of crap cocko, your much learning has made you mad. Just for the record, I'm a fundamentalist Christian, and I don't want all muslims dead, I want them saved, I don't want all Jews dead, I want them saved, I support welfare for the needy, I don't want to treat asylum seekers sub humanly, I want them saved and I want them screened to ensure they are who they say they are and not just Islamic change agents. I don't support wars which kill 100's of thousands nor do I discriminate against those that are different, including homosexuals. And as for your inane remark about stifling the individuality of children, you have got to be kidding, that's what government education is all about, wake up and see the robot factory in action. We (Christians) want our children to think and to reason, to test, try, search and seek, and not just believe a heap of unproven drivel from the mouths of teachers who are only there for the dollar and not the truth. Oh yeah, we also want them to pray and seek God for direction and peace in their lives and to know there is an alternative to your wicked system. you think you have a handle on it all, but I'm tipping you wouldn't recognise a real christian if he walked up and handed you a gospel tract, not everything that call itself a christian is a christian. Oh and by the way, no malice in my retort no hatred, only hope and prayer for your salvation PTD, God bless and good day.
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Genesis 1:1 |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Pa Marmo wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | ^What I meant was that's the sort of indiscriminate overreach you get with genocides: Kill the lot of 'em! They're all the same!
If you track the discourse, that sort of seductive fundamentalist thought process is being given way too much oxygen.
In fact, let me add if you think back to Afghanistan and Iraq, it was also present in the complete disregard for the geo-tribal diffusion of the former, and the highly predictable sectarian chaos of the latter. Not caring what happens to diverse peoples because you have mentally reduced them to more-or-less the same category as some target enemy really is on a par with genocide. |
your full of crap cocko, your much learning has made you mad. Just for the record, I'm a fundamentalist Christian, and I don't want all muslims dead, I want them saved, I don't want all Jews dead, I want them saved, I support welfare for the needy, I don't want to treat asylum seekers sub humanly, I want them saved and I want them screened to ensure they are who they say they are and not just Islamic change agents. I don't support wars which kill 100's of thousands nor do I discriminate against those that are different, including homosexuals. And as for your inane remark about stifling the individuality of children, you have got to be kidding, that's what government education is all about, wake up and see the robot factory in action. We (Christians) want our children to think and to reason, to test, try, search and seek, and not just believe a heap of unproven drivel from the mouths of teachers who are only there for the dollar and not the truth. Oh yeah, we also want them to pray and seek God for direction and peace in their lives and to know there is an alternative to your wicked system. you think you have a handle on it all, but I'm tipping you wouldn't recognise a real christian if he walked up and handed you a gospel tract, not everything that call itself a christian is a christian. Oh and by the way, no malice in my retort no hatred, only hope and prayer for your salvation PTD, God bless and good day. |
It is I who pray for your soul, oh deceived among men. For in your desire to be foremost among the righteous your heart has been poisoned by a spirit of deceit and arrogance. You talk of your faith, but you lack the sincerity and compassion to hold your tongue before drawing your sword, usurping as you would the right of the Father alone to stand in judgement of that which man does not know. As one who deceives and usurps the throne of judgement you are unworthy of the kingdom of heaven, but may the Lord be merciful to you in your ignorance and pride.
For we are all sinners, even those Pharisees as yourself who make grand displays before men and talk of wondrous miracles, but who lack the wisdom and compassion to judge only that which in their hearts they know to be true. In your desire to be foremost among men you have trampled upon the those who in their absence could not deliver their testimony before the Lord; and in your desire to be first among men you have been made last before the Lord.
Woe unto you Scribes and Pharisees! For you do not sit in judgement as the prophet who knows the love of god, but as the heathen who craves the praise of men, and who in his lust to be first brings the widow and her child before the Authorities in darkness to be stoned.
Let it be written that the kingdom of heaven is for those who bow before the Lord and who, in the humility of the fathers, do pray for those beyond the walls of the city as the children of their own loins and as the sons of Abraham. For I will repay vengeance, not you.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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Is the relationship these Fundamentalists have with "moderate" muslim people similar to the relationship the west have with certain branches of our various Defence Forces?
Things like in our own case a couple of examples.
The RAN turning boats around that cold possibly sink.
The US Snipers who are now Hollywood money makers.
The Difference is us westerners are not just prepared we are able to take a stand, make a hell of a noise and say this was done but NOT IN MY NAME when we feel these extremists of our own go too far.
Muslims are just not doing that in any serious way. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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