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Jamie loves Collingwood 
2007 pies for premiers!
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: Perth
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Rocca played injured i thought. Whoeva wrote this topic has no idea what the heck is happening. Rocca was slaughtered by the umps i thought and unfairly dogged by Walls, CHristian and Holland.
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xtcc
Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Location: Brisneyland
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| Zakal wrote: | | xtcc wrote: | | Last 11 rounds last year, Please. |
So we are dropping Tarks, Cloke and Pendles too? Cos on the basis of ignoring present form in favour of last year...they go too. |
Tarks, Cloke & Pendles have all improved from last year 2 of them are kids. Rocca kicked 15 goals in the last 10 rounds of 06. I have been a fan of his for years but think the game has pasted him. He doesn't have the tank to play CHF & your FF should average 4 goals a game thats what they get paid for ? |
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T-BONE MCGRAW
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Location: Unfortunately in Swans country
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| On the March wrote: | Rocca was mauled all day.
The fact he was picked off for hands in the back is a joke when you look at the treatment he got. The best one was in the first q when he had his arm held - he didnt say a word.
All the commentators could do was laugh and that says something in itself.
However he needs to deal with it - this is not the first time other clubs or Melbourne have done this. What he needs to do is put his name on the game whether he's getting a kick or not. If he's going to give away a free kick make it a good one. It makes the opposition think twice. Thats what a Lockett would do.
The other thing is where the hell are the other forwards - he has to be creating opportunities for others if the defenders all go to Rocca - not smart. |
Best quote I have read for a while. He copped some of the worst treatment I have seen. However my only possible gripe with Anthony is his sometime lack of aggression. For a bloke of his size he should be charging into packs and belting blokes like a Gehrig or J Brown. He can afford to give away a free to make his prescence felt. After all he ended up giving away heaps anyway.
The other point is also very valid about the other forwards having to lift their output if Rocca is getting held. We can not afford to be a one man team up forward like the Brisbane Bears |
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Zakal
One Game, One Club, One Jumper
Joined: 04 Nov 2005
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| xtcc wrote: | | Zakal wrote: | | xtcc wrote: | | Last 11 rounds last year, Please. |
So we are dropping Tarks, Cloke and Pendles too? Cos on the basis of ignoring present form in favour of last year...they go too. |
Tarks, Cloke & Pendles have all improved from last year 2 of them are kids. Rocca kicked 15 goals in the last 10 rounds of 06. I have been a fan of his for years but think the game has pasted him. He doesn't have the tank to play CHF & your FF should average 4 goals a game thats what they get paid for ? |
Rocca has improved from the last 10 rounds of last year as well....thats the point. He has kicked more goals, had more scoring shots, WAY more goal assists, and LEADS THE COMPETITION in contested marks.
If 4 goals a game is the cut-off point for a full forward, then congratulations you have just sacked EVERY FF in the competition.
Fevola - Career Avg = 2.7 - 07 avg = 3
Hall - Career Avg = 2.4 - 07 avg = 2
Tredrea - Career Avg = 2.1 - 07 avg = 1
OLoughlin - Career Avg = 1.7 - 07 avg = 1.8
Lucas - Career Avg = 1.7 - 07 avg = 1.7
Johnson - Career Avg = 1.5 - 07 avg = 2.8
Brown - Career Avg = 1.6 - 07 avg = 2
Lynch - Career Avg = 1.5 - 07 avg = 1.9
Franklin - Career Avg = 1.9 - 07 avg = 3
Mooney - Career Avg = 0.9 - 07 avg = 2.4
Richo - Career Avg = 2.9 - 07 avg = 2.3
Rocca - Career Avg = 1.7 - 07 avg = 2
Neitz - Career Avg = 2 - 07 avg = 1.8
Lloyd - Career Avg = 3.6 - 07 avg = 3.3
Pavlich - Career Avg = 1.6 - 07 Avg = 3
Gehrig - Career Avg = 2 - 07 Avg = 2
There are only 3 collingwood forwards IN HISTORY to average more than the minimum 4 goals per game you suggest....Peter McKenna, Gordon Coventry, and Ron Todd. In fact, we were lucky, because we had 3 of only 9 players....in history...to average more than 4 a game.
On that criteria, Carlton, Fitzroy, Kangaroos, Melbourne, Port, Richmond, Footscray, Eagles, and Bears....would have never had a FF because they'd have ALL been dropped back to the reserves.
Just a few of those to miss the cut:
Dick Lee...out
Sav Rocca ...out
Wayne Carey ....out
Bill Brownless...out
Doug Wade ...out
Sumich...out
Modra...out |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| Come on Zakal, don't let facts get in the way of a good sledge. Four goals a game...FFS only 15 players have kicked more than 80 goals in a season over the last decade. Must be a lot of hacks going around. |
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DaVe86 
Man of Steele
Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Location: Melbourne
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Rocca doesnt have to kick 4 a game. We have won every match but 1 this year where he hasnt even kicked 1, and our best footy was coming when Rocca couldnt kick straight.
Rocca is there to provide a contest and straighten us up. Every goal Leon kicks is a result of Rocca's hard work. Its easy to look at the guy with the stat next to his name, but harder to look at the players who contributed to that goal, especially the one's who do not register a stat.
Even if Rocca is outnumbered, he still provides a contest. He is good enough to draw 3 to him. And as someone else said, it is then up to the loose men to pounce on the crumbs.
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There's more to life than footy.........just not much more. |
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xtcc
Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Location: Brisneyland
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I said should average 4 goals a game. Great FF kick goals.
Zakal going on the stats you posted why do they get paid so much to be the match winners. I would expect a HFF to average that many goals.
What is Didaks average over his career not just AFL, & pendles average this year ?
& not trying to be smart just intrested.
Last edited by xtcc on Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mudlark
Joined: 19 Mar 2002
Location: Maroochydore Qld
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| Jamie loves Collingwood wrote: | | Rocca played injured i thought. Whoeva wrote this topic has no idea what the heck is happening. Rocca was slaughtered by the umps i thought and unfairly dogged by Walls, CHristian and Holland. |
If Rocca played injured then shame on the selectors because it cost us the game. The reason I posted this topic is not because Anthony got cruelled by the filthy maggots,blind freddy could see that, it was his lack of chase and effort as the dreamon defenders rushed the ball out of our forward line without any resistance and Ant with his hands on knees huffing ang puffing as if it was the first training run of the year.Not once, but several times. I've seen him go goalless before but the difference is he brought the ball to ground, crashed the packs and chased to keep the ball in our forward line.He didn't do any of these things on saturday, and he is one of the leaders of the club and should be able to lift when needed. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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This is probably Rocca's firt real year as a Full forward. In the past he played mainly at CHF, dropping back when Taz lead out.
This year he's kicked 22 goals, 21 behind probably about 6 OOB so he's averageing 4 shots at goal a game.
I'm not sure where you get the stats on Goal Assists from but he'd have to be up there with those. Also, when he's not getting the ball for a shot at goal himself or directly giving it off, he (normally) provides a major physical contest, drawing 2-3 oposition players which creates crumbs for guys like Neon and Medders. Neon's kicked 18 goals this year, a fair few of those would be directly attributable to Rocca.
He had a bad game against Melbourne, no argument, but Holland should have been charged with sexual assualt the way he was holding and all over him.
As long as he's creating contests and bringing others into the game, IDGAF who kicks the goals as long as we get enough of them to win each week.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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xtcc
Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Location: Brisneyland
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| So Neons average is 1.8 for the year. About what i said for a flanker & he goes in the middle. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| xtcc wrote: | | So Neons average is 1.8 for the year. About what i said for a flanker & he goes in the middle. |
he's also got freakish accuracy though, he's kicked 18g 4b so averaging 2 shots per game.
Your suggested averages work out when you apply them to shots rather than actual goals.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| xtcc wrote: | | Zakal wrote: | | xtcc wrote: | | Last 11 rounds last year, Please. |
So we are dropping Tarks, Cloke and Pendles too? Cos on the basis of ignoring present form in favour of last year...they go too. |
Tarks, Cloke & Pendles have all improved from last year 2 of them are kids. Rocca kicked 15 goals in the last 10 rounds of 06. I have been a fan of his for years but think the game has pasted him. He doesn't have the tank to play CHF & your FF should average 4 goals a game thats what they get paid for ? |
Please factor every contest spillage assist, pack spillage assist, multiple defender attraction assist, fear of god assist and structural stability assist into what Rocca does before you even mention contested marks, tackles and goals, and then you may have a vaguely accurate representation of the importance of him to the club.
The game has not passed Rocca by, but it appears to have passed by you without you understanding much about it. |
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Cannibal
Joined: 10 May 2004
Location: Buninyong
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| xtcc wrote: | | Last 11 rounds last year, Please. |
19 goals.
Rocca kicked 35 in the first 11 rounds, 19 in the 2nd half and 1 goal in the final.
| Big T wrote: |
Still, hopefully lessons will be learnt by the coaching staff and therefore the players:
(1) If he had 3-4 players on him as everyone is suggesting then why werent the 2-3 players who had no man more productive when we had 61 entries inside 50m which is a lot?
(2) What would a player like Jonathon Brown done in the same situation, what could pebs have done differently to be more productive?
(3) Does Pebs get too emotional on the field in this situation - emotion leads to bad decisions in any job, I know people will disagree but lets face it guys like Gehrig, Richo and Pebs probably are more likely to lose the plot after some rough treatment than other key forwards;
(4) Has Pebs actions in the past (eg) holding the ball up to umpires, mouthing off etc caused him to cop it harder from the umps? If so there is a lesson there, concentrate on the job.
(5) Is Matthew Lloyd more effective because he is better able to milk free kicks, if so then why isnt someone is teaching Pebs to do the same?
Some of this may be off the mark but these types of questions surely must be asked after a crucial game like that. At the end of the day yes we won't win them all but if we are to be a force then these games must be won at all costs against the 15th team who have less to win for and we lost the game in the forward line as the stats show, not the back line despite being undermanned. |
Good post, BigT. Good questions.
(1) If he had 3-4 players on him as everyone is suggesting then why werent the 2-3 players who had no man more productive when we had 61 entries inside 50m which is a lot?
From what I could see, there weren't too many players willing to make space or run around, however, I think the true answer to this is that we had more players down the back and halfway up the ground, which I suspect was an attempt to stem Melbourne's play, so the loose men were nowhere to be seen inside the 50m arc.
(2) What would a player like Jonathon Brown done in the same situation, what could Pebs have done differently to be more productive?
Pebbles is too inclined to stick to a one-dimensional gameplan (sort of like the coach is). He didn't look to be trying to get off on a lead as much as he usually does. Now, in part, that's not his fault; if we pussy-foot around with the ball down the field, then by the time it gets to the forward line, Rocca can't lead, because he's being double- or triple-teamed and there are players falling into the space to where he would normally lead. This is smart play by the opposition coach, by the way, and we often forget that coaches are always going to be trying to nullify our strengths and sometimes their tactics will work. When something like this happens, we need to change our forward gameplan. In another thread, I've mentioned four possible options. The obvious one, though, is to drop the resting ruckman - Fraser or Bryan - into the goalsquare and tell 'em to stay there, which will partly nullify the opposition by forcing them to watch two talls, not one. Rocca doesn't have the stamina to play a Brown-like forward line roving role.
(3) Does Pebs get too emotional on the field in this situation - emotion leads to bad decisions in any job, I know people will disagree but lets face it guys like Gehrig, Richo and Pebs probably are more likely to lose the plot after some rough treatment than other key forwards.
That never helps. Lose the plot and you might as well tell the opposition player that his close-checking tactics have already worked. Blowing your stack at the ump over it never helps, either. My take on this is that the more a player complains, the more an umpire is likely to turn both a blind eye and a deaf ear to whatever is going on. That's just human nature.
(4) Has Pebs actions in the past (eg) holding the ball up to umpires, mouthing off etc caused him to cop it harder from the umps? If so there is a lesson there, concentrate on the job.
You've hit the nail on the head, mate. Focus on doing your job, regardless of whatever the opposition are doing is the best and only way to deal with close-checking attention like Holland dished out on Monday.
(5) Is Matthew Lloyd more effective because he is better able to milk free kicks, if so then why isnt someone is teaching Pebs to do the same?
To be blunt, we have at least 3-4 blokes who are already known "divers", always trying to milk free kicks. I don't think the umpires are unaware of this and I think if you are a known or suspected diver, you won't get the benefit of the doubt. Rocca is not a diver, however, like many tall, strong forwards, he's inclined to use his hands just as much as an opposition backman. If an umpire is confronted with two blokes scragging, both holding on to each other, he isn't going to pay either of them a free kick. Rocca tried to counter Holland's attentions on Monday by using his hands and got pinged 6 times for "hand in the back" for his trouble. Leaving Rocca one-out at FF was not a good idea under the circumstances; plans B, C and D should have been applied for lengthy periods. They were applied, but only for short periods, not long enough to counter the attention Rocca was getting.
In many ways, my take on this is that Rocca was an unintended victim of our coaching rigidity. We didn't change our tactics and stuck to bombing it long to Rocca virtually all day. That made it just so easy for Melbourne to counter.
_________________
Glory Glory Good Old Collingwood, Glory Glory Hallelujah,
Collingwood's The Greatest Team The World Has Ever Seen,
And The 'Pies Go Marching On (in Black and White Stripes Forever!). |
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xtcc
Joined: 13 Feb 2007
Location: Brisneyland
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Again. I said 15 in the last 10 rounds. Not 19 in the last 1/2 of the year.
Really good read cannibal, i agree with you in lots of areas. |
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Cannibal
Joined: 10 May 2004
Location: Buninyong
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| xtcc wrote: | I said should average 4 goals a game. Great FF kick goals.
Zakal going on the stats you posted why do they get paid so much to be the match winners. I would expect a HFF to average that many goals.
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The trouble is, mate, that reaching an average of 4 goals per game is rare. As far as I can ascertain, only 10 recognised full-forwards in AFL/VFL history have achieved that mark:
Hudson (727 goals, 5.6 ave), Coleman (537, 5.5), Lockett (1360, 4.8 ), Dunstall (1254, 4.7), McKenna (874, 4.6), Coventry (1299, 4.3), Pratt (681, 4.3), Ablett (1030, 4.2), Wade (1057, 4.0) and Fanning (411, 4.0).
Now, that's the Pantheon of full-forwards. Very tough to be included in that company.
A more realistic mark is 3 goals per game. That would mean including Lloyd (3.6) and Richo (3.0) for blokes currently playing (Richo is a damned sight better full-forward than many give him credit for). I count another 12 blokes who kicked more than 500 goals in their career and who average 3.0 or more per game.
Recognised current FF's like Fevola (2.7), Hall (2.4), Neitz (2.1), Tredrea (2.2) and Gehrig (2.1) are averaging more than 2 and that appears to be where you could probably draw the line now.
However, looking at the last ten seasons, the winner of the Coleman Medal has averaged 4.0 or more in 7 seasons, the other three averaged 3.5. This suggests that a very high standard is still required but that it's also difficult to be achieving a consistently high standard year after year.
In Rocca's defence this is only his 2nd season playing full-forward. He kicked 55 goals last season from 23 games (including 1 final), for an average of 2.4 goals per game. That certainly places him in the recognised full-forward category but not among the best of his peers.
I think you grossly over-estimate the average goals of small forwards (or HFF, as you put it). The best historically, as far as I can ascertain appears to be Peter Daicos (549 goals, ave 2.2), then Jeff Farmer (441, 2.0). Kevin Bartlett kicked more, 778 goals to be precise, but at an average of just under 2 per game (1.9).
Therefore, averaging 2 goals per game is the same achievement as a full-forward kicking 4 goals per game; rather rare!
You might also note that the Pantheon standard for centre half forwards also appears to be 2 goals per game. The best I can identify are Malcolm Blight (444 goals, ave 2.5) and Dermott Brereton (464, 2.2).
If I adjust Rocca's career stats to remove last season, I come up with 286 goals from 184 games, an average of 1.6 per game at CHF. This puts him square alongside Alex Jesaulenko (444, 1.6) and better than the likes of Terry Daniher (469, 1.5) and Roger Merrett (433, 1.4). That's a damn fine, high standard of achievement.
So, I would conclude that Rocca rates extremely highly as a CHF (just short of the Pantheon) and is still a damn good FF.
As for Dids, he's kicked 146 goals from 102 games, an average of 1.4 per game. Last season, he kicked 41 from 23 games, an average of 1.8 per game. That was a very high standard that Dids achieved last season. If he could maintain that standard consistently, we'd win a lot more games.
_________________
Glory Glory Good Old Collingwood, Glory Glory Hallelujah,
Collingwood's The Greatest Team The World Has Ever Seen,
And The 'Pies Go Marching On (in Black and White Stripes Forever!). |
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