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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| Flashman wrote: | | AN_Inkling wrote: | Luke Ball - leaves the Saints. Bagged by Saints supporters. Saints supporters lack class and respect.
Daisy - leaves Collingwood. Bagged by Collingwood supporters. Daisy lacks class and respect.
Makes sense. |
Pretty poor comparison really.
Luke Ball had clearly been on the outer with Ross Lyon as evidenced by being dropped and given limited game time throughout the year (as evidenced by the 2009 grand final) and clearly faced a diminishing role at the Saints going forward and left to pursue greater on field opportunities. Thomas left for more money (which is his right) and no other reason.
Plus Luke Ball didn't play his contract negotiations out in the media and make misleading statements to fans on the eve of leaving the club, nor did he use a media position to make disparaging remarks aimed at teammates (telling players to pull their heads in) or to moan about some of the initiatives introduced by the coach (Leading Teams). All of which would understandably make the club look on him in a less than favourable light.
Luke Ball has conducted himself with nothing but class especially towards his previous club and anyone who bags him does lack respect.
Dale Thomas conducted himself in a less than professional manner during 2013 and certainly doesn't warrant the respect that Luke Ball deserves in my opinion. |
It's essentially the same circumstance though. And the anger directed at Ball was when he had a contract on the table from St Kilda but instead asked to be traded, only giving one club as an option: the hated Collingwood. On this board we thought the Saints fans were being harsh on a player who'd given his all for the club, by saying he was finished as a footballer and never lived up to expectations anyway (very familiar to the comments we're now seeing over Thomas).
After the way we've handled the Thomas departure and even Cloke's contract negotiations, I don't think we'd have been any classier than the Saints fans to be honest. Shaw was dropped by us during last season and it was clear the club wasn't completely pleased with him. If he'd, with a contract on the table, asked to be traded, but only to Carlton. Would he have been treated better than Ball was by the Saints? I don't think so. And remember, Ball did actually play in the Grand Final that year, it wasn't as if he was being completely looked over by Lyon.
I've got no problem with fans wanting to react harshly to Thomas's defection. All part of the fun. It's the deriding of posters like 35forever for irrationality, when the opposite position is no more rational that I think is unfair.
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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Wellingham says hi......I think most of us would say hi back.
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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Last edited by September Zeros on Mon Apr 21, 2014 10:06 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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Ball spent massive amounts of the 2009 GF on the pine (about 50% of the game) even though his output was exceptional when he was on the ground. Clearly Lyon had little faith in Luke for some reason.
St Kilda didn't trade with us and Luke had to take pot luck in the draft. Thankfully we got him but I'd bet my life that if another club stole our thunder and pinched Luke from under our noses (which unlike Thomas he'd have had no say to prevent happening) that he'd have still given 100% for that club and conducted himself like the classy professional athlete that he is.
Shaw didn't get dropped last year I don't think. He was suspended which may be what you're thinking of. But your point is a fair one. If Heater had've asked for an exclusive Carlton trade we supporters would definately have turned on him but the Collingwood/Carlton antipathy is something which transcends any other league rivalry going back over a century, which is mainly why a large part of the supporter base despises Thomas now.
My issue with 35forever is that he states his opinion, or his allegations and says they are irrefutable fact and continues to throw aspersions at our coach and senior figures at our club based on absolutely no evidence just pure conjecture. It's an annoying habit of his and people are calling him on it.
Last edited by Flashman on Mon Apr 21, 2014 9:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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| double. |
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Doc63
Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: Newport
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| Flashman wrote: | | My issue with 35forever is that he states his opinion, or his allegations and says they are irrefutable fact and continues to throw aspersions at our coach and senior figures at our club based on absolutely no evidence just pure conjecture. It's an annoying habit of his and people are calling him on it. |
Bingo!! And he doesn't like people calling him on it either. We are just suppose to accept his lunatic ravings as fact, without question.
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I hold a cup of wisdom, but there is nothing within. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| Flashman wrote: |
My issue with 35forever is that he states his opinion, or his allegations and says they are irrefutable fact and continues to throw aspersions at our coach and senior figures at our club based on absolutely no evidence just pure conjecture. It's an annoying habit of his and people are calling him on it. |
I understand. My only point about is that others are just as confident in their view that Thomas left solely for money, and cast their aspersions his way with no real evidence. It's the us against them mentality, which is fine, but if you want to throw stones one way, getting overly upset at someone throwing them in a different direction is a little hypocritical.
I don't agree fully with 35forever's strong views, nor do I agree fully with those who have turned on Daisy, but I don't have a problem with either for holding those views. We all take positions based on incomplete information (or in my case sit on the fence  ), we'll all fill in the gaps differently, and I find those views that differ from my own more interesting than those that align.
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Well done boys! |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | Flashman wrote: |
My issue with 35forever is that he states his opinion, or his allegations and says they are irrefutable fact and continues to throw aspersions at our coach and senior figures at our club based on absolutely no evidence just pure conjecture. It's an annoying habit of his and people are calling him on it. |
I understand. My only point about is that others are just as confident in their view that Thomas left solely for money, and cast their aspersions his way with no real evidence. It's the us against them mentality, which is fine, but if you want to throw stones one way, getting overly upset at someone throwing them in a different direction is a little hypocritical.
I don't agree fully with 35forever's strong views, nor do I agree fully with those who have turned on Daisy, but I don't have a problem with either for holding those views. We all take positions based on incomplete information (or in my case sit on the fence ), we'll all fill in the gaps differently, and I find those views that differ from my own more interesting than those that align. |
i agree with An Inkling on this one. I have been on a bit of an emotional rollercoaster with the Daisy issue (as i have felt both sides of the debate. I will say that my posts defending Daisy have been dealt with a lot more harshly than my posts criticizing Daisy. In summary, i would say that those who blame Daisy for leaving are much more talking about "facts" without any real knowledge, than those who ask us fans to consider Daisy's somewhat unique circumstances.
By the way, the defection of a superstar to a pick FA check will make the club that loses that player stronger in the long run in almost all circumstances. Look at the Cats with Ablett, the Hawks with Franklin and the pies with thomas. This fact tends to be true even if the player goes on to be a megastar (see Gary Ablett).
For those who doubt me, please go and have a look at what the cats got for giving up Ablett - and then also assess how much better off the club is for not having to pay $1 million per year for one player.
In our case, we effectively got Scharenberg for Daisy (who is almost certainly going to be more productive than Daisy over the next 15 years) More importantly, however, in one decision to let a player go, we solved almost all of our salary cap issues. We will reap the benefit of this loss for years to come, just as Geelong did.
This is why i dont sweat losing daisy anymore and wish him well.
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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Stupied
Joined: 14 Mar 2013
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Good post E, but I would argue that we got Freeman for Daisy. We could still have easily traded our pick 10 up to pick 6 rather than the Thomas compo.
A better way of looking at it would be that Dale leaving allowed us to snare two top 10 picks rather than one. Still a win in my book  |
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skaman 
One step beyond.......
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Townsville via Melbourne
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I lost interest in Daisy when he sang the Carlscum theme song on mad Monday!
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Enjoy yourself. Its later than you think! |
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schuey07 
Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Location: Mount Waverley
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Just bumping this thread for our crazy friend 35forever. It was so good seeing Daisy at his brownlow winning best yesterday. If he keeps playing like he did yesterday, he would have to be leading after 7 rounds. /sarc.
Maybe 35forever the club knows what it's doing in regards to list management and players abilities more than we do. Maybe just maybe we should trust the people in charge. In regards to Bucks he looks to be in better shape than our old coach.
Although with Malthouse in charge we would have at least won 5 flags in a row. Look at what he has done for Carlton, playing premiership footy this year. |
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Doc63
Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: Newport
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| schuey07 wrote: | Just bumping this thread for our crazy friend 35forever. It was so good seeing Daisy at his brownlow winning best yesterday. If he keeps playing like he did yesterday, he would have to be leading after 7 rounds. /sarc.
Maybe 35forever the club knows what it's doing in regards to list management and players abilities more than we do. Maybe just maybe we should trust the people in charge. In regards to Bucks he looks to be in better shape than our old coach.
Although with Malthouse in charge we would have at least won 5 flags in a row. Look at what he has done for Carlton, playing premiership footy this year. |
LOL!! He must be devastated.
Or maybe he's half way through another 5000 word diatribe on how the Club shafted both of them, and we'd be much better off if they were both still here.
Cant wait to read it.
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I hold a cup of wisdom, but there is nothing within. |
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GreekLunatic
Joined: 22 Feb 2003
Location: doncaster vic australia
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| Maybe that's why ball and others didn't like him cause of mad monday |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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| 35forever wrote: |
Make no mistake, there was a reason Leigh Matthews called him "Possibly the best in the game". He will end up as one of Carltons best 2 or 3 , just watch, all he lacks is the phenomenal 'engine' required by our great game, you don't get that back after four games, are you kidding? Who ever did that? Give him ten games and you'll see why he's worth 700K & more.
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Just on that 35forever.
The same Leigh Matthews basically said Thomas was a big fat dud for Carlton and not worth anywhere near 700K last night so you can drop that argument (which from memory Ross Lyon said anyway) the next time you're pining for your lost love. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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^^Not what Leigh said at all. He said Thomas was lacking his usual pace and run, but that this could improve with greater match fitness.
We all know that Thomas was never the most skilled by foot or the most consistent ball winner at our club. His greatest asset was always his run and fitness. Lose that and he looks ordinary. There's no reason to think that he'll never get close to that level of fitness again.
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Well done boys! |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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^His ankles say hi.
At the end of the day I'm not missing Thomas one bit.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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