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5 from the wing on debut
Joined: 27 May 2016
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| Member 7167 wrote: | This is something that occurred when H first joined the club. What do you think the likely outcome in when you mix together a group of football team mates, the horsing around that is part of this culture, young men's egos and bravado and mix this with a party and alcohol.
At the time H did not take offence as he accepted the comments in the context in which they were said and meant. At the time H did not look at it being offensive as it wasn't meant to be offensive or a racial slur.
The other thing as it is H is now not you average bloke. It is obvious that he has problems coming to terms with who he is, his history and experiences in life. As an example, his reaction to the death of Muhammad Ali were quite unusual and it would not be a stretch to assess him as being very sensitive and having a tendency to over react to issues he is passionate about.
Even over this brief period of time societies values and perceptions have changed dramatically in this area. Judging what has occurred in the past from today's perspective can provide a very different result to the perception at the time the exchanges took place. |
Your point about perception at the time is correct.
Winston Churchill's first autobiography, entitled "My Early Life" was published, from memory, sometime in the 1920's. There was one passage I recall when as part of the British military he was ambushed by Afghani tribesmen, and as part of the hand to hand fighting that ensued, he referred to one of his "golliwogs" being stabbed, and how he fought to save him. He did not use that word in a racist sense, as that was just the way it was. It was not thought about. Can you imagine someone saying that today? |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| I feel empathy towards Harry, because he is clearly damaged goods and has a very fragile state of mind. However, the fact that he always blames others, particularly those who have done the most to support him, for all his problems, is suggestive of a narcissistic personality. He never, ever, accepts any personal responsibility for any of his problems. It's time to grow up Harry and face up to the fact that you are not particularly bright, but you were a good footballer. You should be proud of your football achievements and you should be thankful to your teammates and coaches, who helped you in your career. |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Member 7167 wrote: | This is something that occurred when H first joined the club. What do you think the likely outcome in when you mix together a group of football team mates, the horsing around that is part of this culture, young men's egos and bravado and mix this with a party and alcohol.
At the time H did not take offence as he accepted the comments in the context in which they were said and meant. At the time H did not look at it being offensive as it wasn't meant to be offensive or a racial slur.
The other thing as it is H is now not you average bloke. It is obvious that he has problems coming to terms with who he is, his history and experiences in life. As an example, his reaction to the death of Muhammad Ali were quite unusual and it would not be a stretch to assess him as being very sensitive and having a tendency to over react to issues he is passionate about.
Even over this brief period of time societies values and perceptions have changed dramatically in this area. Judging what has occurred in the past from today's perspective can provide a very different result to the perception at the time the exchanges took place. |
maybe "' at the time'he was worried about keeping his spot if he whinged.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| think positive wrote: | | Member 7167 wrote: | This is something that occurred when H first joined the club. What do you think the likely outcome in when you mix together a group of football team mates, the horsing around that is part of this culture, young men's egos and bravado and mix this with a party and alcohol.
At the time H did not take offence as he accepted the comments in the context in which they were said and meant. At the time H did not look at it being offensive as it wasn't meant to be offensive or a racial slur.
The other thing as it is H is now not you average bloke. It is obvious that he has problems coming to terms with who he is, his history and experiences in life. <snip>
Even over this brief period of time societies values and perceptions have changed dramatically in this area. Judging what has occurred in the past from today's perspective can provide a very different result to the perception at the time the exchanges took place. |
maybe ' at the time' he was worried about keeping his spot if he whinged. |
Yes. The bolded claim about H not taking offence is pure speculation and likely plain wrong. There are all sorts of pressure not to whinge.
The Age's take:
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Having put up with the nickname "Chimp" because he wanted to fit in at Collingwood, Lumumba felt ...
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Aside: Is it really known when this occurred, i.e. "when H first joined the club", as you claim, M7167? |
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Redlight
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| K wrote: | Yes. The bolded claim about H not taking offence is pure speculation and likely plain wrong. There are all sorts of pressure not to whinge.
The Age's take:
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Having put up with the nickname "Chimp" because he wanted to fit in at Collingwood, Lumumba felt ...
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Aside: Is it really known when this occurred, i.e. "when H first joined the club", as you claim, M7167? |
I think Maxwell was the one that said H didn't seem to be offended at the time. Mind you even H said he was called that by 'some', so we don't know how widespread it was.
It casts a shadow until we know the origin, but if it was a short-lived name used by a few because, for instance, he climbed a tree at a party, then it could be innocent, if clearly ignorant.
A lot of young men going to an AFL club for the first time may have had no exposure at all to these kinds of issues.
It's also possible that H became more offended by it over time, as he was adopted the role of self-described 'educator' and seeing things through that filter. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Redlight wrote: | | K wrote: | Yes. The bolded claim about H not taking offence is pure speculation and likely plain wrong. There are all sorts of pressure not to whinge.
The Age's take:
| Quote: |
Having put up with the nickname "Chimp" because he wanted to fit in at Collingwood, Lumumba felt ...
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Aside: Is it really known when this occurred, i.e. "when H first joined the club", as you claim, M7167? |
I think Maxwell was the one that said H didn't seem to be offended at the time. Mind you even H said he was called that by 'some', so we don't know how widespread it was.
It casts a shadow until we know the origin, but if it was a short-lived name used by a few because, for instance, he climbed a tree at a party, then it could be innocent, if clearly ignorant.
A lot of young men going to an AFL club for the first time may have had no exposure at all to these kinds of issues.
It's also possible that H became more offended by it over time, as he was adopted the role of self-described 'educator' and seeing things through that filter. |
yeah nah, it doesnt matter how you twist it, it was just plain wrong.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Redlight wrote: | | K wrote: | Yes. The bolded claim about H not taking offence is pure speculation and likely plain wrong. There are all sorts of pressure not to whinge.
The Age's take:
| Quote: |
Having put up with the nickname "Chimp" because he wanted to fit in at Collingwood, Lumumba felt ...
|
Aside: Is it really known when this occurred, i.e. "when H first joined the club", as you claim, M7167? |
I think Maxwell was the one that said H didn't seem to be offended at the time. Mind you even H said he was called that by 'some', so we don't know how widespread it was.
It casts a shadow until we know the origin, but if it was a short-lived name used by a few because, for instance, he climbed a tree at a party, then it could be innocent, if clearly ignorant.
A lot of young men going to an AFL club for the first time may have had no exposure at all to these kinds of issues.
It's also possible that H became more offended by it over time, as he was adopted the role of self-described 'educator' and seeing things through that filter. |
No. Maxwell was reported to have said that H didn't tell him the nickname hurt.
That's completely consistent with H bottling it all up. It's not even close to implying that H was okay with it at the time, a claim that is thus mere speculation. |
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slangman
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
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| think positive wrote: | | Redlight wrote: | | K wrote: | Yes. The bolded claim about H not taking offence is pure speculation and likely plain wrong. There are all sorts of pressure not to whinge.
The Age's take:
| Quote: |
Having put up with the nickname "Chimp" because he wanted to fit in at Collingwood, Lumumba felt ...
|
Aside: Is it really known when this occurred, i.e. "when H first joined the club", as you claim, M7167? |
I think Maxwell was the one that said H didn't seem to be offended at the time. Mind you even H said he was called that by 'some', so we don't know how widespread it was.
It casts a shadow until we know the origin, but if it was a short-lived name used by a few because, for instance, he climbed a tree at a party, then it could be innocent, if clearly ignorant.
A lot of young men going to an AFL club for the first time may have had no exposure at all to these kinds of issues.
It's also possible that H became more offended by it over time, as he was adopted the role of self-described 'educator' and seeing things through that filter. |
yeah nah, it doesnt matter how you twist it, it was just plain wrong. |
7 pages in and you only now inform us that you knew how and why he was given that nickname for it to be “just plain wrong”.
Any chance you can inform the rest of us what was actually discussed at the board meeting. Walsh’s tone would be be the most interesting to know.
Who leaked the drug info to Robbo? can wait to hear who it was.
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- Side By Side - |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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It's all speculation and hot air until we know facts and context. Until then it's all neither "plain wrong" or "plain ok".
I don't care what generalisations for the sake of empathy are made. Context counts.
Trouble is we will likely never get the full truth or the full context. So it will be a perpetual tale of two sides, those who lean towards believing H and sympathising with him and those who lean towards mistrust of H with little sympathy.
To confuse it further , I imagine his doco will not shed any more light on it to be honest. It will present only one side of the coin.
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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Member 7167 
"What Good Fortune For Governments That The People Do Not Think" - Adolf Hitler.
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Location: The Collibran Hideout
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I also cannot see in real terms what HL has to gain from this documentary. I perceive him to being quite vulnerable and irrespective of other outcomes I hope it does not make him the lesser for it. SBS have it all to gain but at what cost to H. Let's be honest, during public interaction he has come across poorly on a number of occasions
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Now Retired - Every Day Is A Saturday |
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Collingwood 4 eternity
Joined: 23 Nov 2007
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Redlight
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| K wrote: | | Redlight wrote: | | It's also possible that H became more offended by it over time, as he was adopted the role of self-described 'educator' and seeing things through that filter. |
No. Maxwell was reported to have said that H didn't tell him the nickname hurt.
That's completely consistent with H bottling it all up. It's not even close to implying that H was okay with it at the time, a claim that is thus mere speculation. |
Maxwell's statement is consistent with either possibility.
Both positions are 'mere speculation' as neither of us are in a position to know for sure. |
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Redlight
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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That's interesting. Americans are much more sensitive to this sort of stuff because of their history, remember the Harry Connick Jnr blow up on Hey Hey about the Jackson 5 skit? Most of the Aussies were completely non-plussed. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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| Redlight wrote: | | K wrote: | | Redlight wrote: | | It's also possible that H became more offended by it over time, as he was adopted the role of self-described 'educator' and seeing things through that filter. |
No. Maxwell was reported to have said that H didn't tell him the nickname hurt.
That's completely consistent with H bottling it all up. It's not even close to implying that H was okay with it at the time, a claim that is thus mere speculation. |
Maxwell's statement is consistent with either possibility.
Both positions are 'mere speculation' as neither of us are in a position to know for sure. |
The point is not to believe in one speculation or the opposite, or something in between... Something was written as a statement (M7167: "At the time H did not take offence..." etc.), and a couple of us pointed out it was complete speculation. And what I wrote that you quoted above was in response to your statement that "I think Maxwell was the one that said H didn't seem to be offended at the time".
We never wrote the opposite of that speculation as if it was a statement of fact.
(I don't think one needs to speculate one way or another to be disturbed.) |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| slangman wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Redlight wrote: | | K wrote: | Yes. The bolded claim about H not taking offence is pure speculation and likely plain wrong. There are all sorts of pressure not to whinge.
The Age's take:
| Quote: |
Having put up with the nickname "Chimp" because he wanted to fit in at Collingwood, Lumumba felt ...
|
Aside: Is it really known when this occurred, i.e. "when H first joined the club", as you claim, M7167? |
I think Maxwell was the one that said H didn't seem to be offended at the time. Mind you even H said he was called that by 'some', so we don't know how widespread it was.
It casts a shadow until we know the origin, but if it was a short-lived name used by a few because, for instance, he climbed a tree at a party, then it could be innocent, if clearly ignorant.
A lot of young men going to an AFL club for the first time may have had no exposure at all to these kinds of issues.
It's also possible that H became more offended by it over time, as he was adopted the role of self-described 'educator' and seeing things through that filter. |
yeah nah, it doesnt matter how you twist it, it was just plain wrong. |
7 pages in and you only now inform us that you knew how and why he was given that nickname for it to be “just plain wrong”.
Any chance you can inform the rest of us what was actually discussed at the board meeting. Walsh’s tone would be be the most interesting to know.
Who leaked the drug info to Robbo? can wait to hear who it was. |
The nickname was just plain wrong. No matter the context -even "at the time" and it certainly should not continue.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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