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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | Just on %, when you think about it, aussie rules footy, and percentages, is probably one of the fairest ways to work out positions on team ladders, ever devised. The more goals you kick, is balanced against, the goals you get kicked against you, thus working out that the attacking goal scoring team, with great defence, is entitled to be higher placed on the ladder. I cant think of many other games or sports in the world that use this system, and its pretty unique really, when one thinks about it. ! |
that's because in other professional sports in the world it is considered poor form to rub a teams nose in it!! its very much an Australian tradition.
In other sports, once the win is assured, teams a taught to respect the opponent.
In baseball, you stop stealing bases. In NFL, you might start running the ball.
The only other place where running up a big score means anything is college football where the quality of victory is judged by random people who then vote for the prettiest two teams to play in a so called national championship.
My question is this. What does it prove about the overall quality of your team to be a flat track bully??? Its rubbish.
And percentage doesn't matter!
_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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sixpoints
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Location: Lulie Street
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^
Goal difference matters in soccer leagues. Eg you can win the EPL on goal difference, so winning well matters.
The World Cup is on in June, goal difference counts in the Group Stages.
In NRL, the points for/against differential is used to sort ladder positions for teams on equal wins. So winning well counts.
In Rugby Union bonus points are awarded for scoring more than 4 tries. So again, winning well matters as you can pickup more points.
In the NHL, final standings can take account of goal difference, again winning well matters.
In all of those sports, winning well can advantage you in final standings. The AFL is not alone.
And anyway, we have used % for over a hundred years, just like the other major sports I've listed, so why change? |
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Darkstranger
Joined: 06 Jun 2012
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| This is where we start to get frustrated... We will win, no doubt but it's going to be a slog every week because we are expecting 10 goals plus wins weekly! |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Darkstranger wrote: | | This is where we start to get frustrated... We will win, no doubt but it's going to be a slog every week because we are expecting 10 goals plus wins weekly! |
SOME are expecting and/or predicting 10 goal plus wins. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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SO, I take it the anti percentage, no problem, brigade, will be content if we miss second or third spot by 1.8 % then. ? True, make the finals first, but what comes next, placings, is very important. Surely ?
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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MattyD
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Location: Kew
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LOL percentage.
I feel like I am having de ja vu.
We should beat some teams in the lower half of the ladder by bigger margins, with of course the odd game where our boys have a bad day, or the other team plays exceptionally well.
But you have to account for the umpire factor.
As far as I am concerned, every game that we could and should win by 10 goals plus, the umpires intervene and make it impossible.
How do they do that?
By giving our opponents 9 free kicks in the first quarter to our 1. Or by giving us 9 frees for a game and 20 to our opponents.
And there is also of course the Collingwood Forward Line Rule:
no free kicks to Collingwood under any circumstances inside 50, and especially not Cloke.
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | SO, I take it the anti percentage, no problem, brigade, will be content if we miss second or third spot by 1.8 % then. ? True, make the finals first, but what comes next, placings, is very important. Surely ? |
Not anti percentage, just don't see it as a more significant need than getting 4 points each round. And, on current form, can't see us accumulating as many wins as either Port or Hawthorn. |
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M@®© 
1972
Joined: 13 Apr 2003
Location: Victoria - Rowville
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% is irrelevant!!
Apart from Essendon, no team in the 8 last year on the same points. We all know what happened to Essendon. Look at North Melbourne, more % than 4 teams above them, it didn't help them.
1 Hawthorn 135.7
2 Geelong 135.6
3 Fremantle 134.1
4 Sydney 132.5
5 Richmond 122.8
6 Collingwood 115.0
7 Port Adelaide 102.4
8 Carlton 106.7
9 Essendon 107.3*
10 North Melbourne 119.5
_________________
My Local Footy Stats Site |
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35forever
"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park
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This has obviously been discussed before but I must have missed it. It beggars belief that there are those who believe percentage is unimportant. What!? How can anyone think that? It's like saying that fitness is unimportant, only skills matter. Actually it's like being certain that all sheep have wheels, it's just nonsense! The only way percentage can be irrelevant is if a side wins every game and no one else does. This has happened what? Twice? Once?
Ladder position is decided by two factors, and two factors only (unless you're Carlton and can get a spot in the 8 handed to you by the AFL!). How can anyone suggest one of those factors means nothing without having their mental capacity called into question!? We would be 4th right now if we had the best %. Is 4th not better than 6th!?
Particularly in this season where just 12 points separate 4th from 16th. The reason we have, and were always going to have, a sh|t percentage is the fact that we were, once again handed the sh\tty draw (and yes, it's a mathematically demonstrable fact!)
We were never going to have a % of 150 like the hawks at this vital part of the season. Playing 3 of last years top 4 to start the season makes that all but impossible. For some reason history, if not maths, tells us that huge percentages require big wins in the early part of the season.
Anyway, our effort to get a decent percentage needs to be based not on whalloping the "easy" sides, as easy sides can be mighty hard at various times, but in preventing & reversing our tendency to fade out at the end of games, and learning to press home our advantage once we have the points in the bag. Personally I think one of the roadblocks to a big number in the second column is the coach. It seems to be part of Buckley's game plan this year to build a lead early then basically tread water in a defensive, very conservative (not to mention brain-bustingly boring) style of footy. I guess that the idea is to preserve fitness and prevent injury, while ensuring the 4 points, and I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, even though it's almost unwatchable. It certainly is a fact that points are more important than percentage, but unless we are going to win every game from here on we're going to need percentage to avoid horror match-ups in the finals.
Of course what we saw against West Coast was a very different fish altogether. It was an incredible effort which proved once again that our best can beat anyone else's. West Coast were at their best this week & didn't take home the points. given that we play them at least once more that's a great sign. For the first time in nearly a year we played well in all 4 quarters. If we continue in that vein percentage would indeed be redundant, but I really, even in my most optimistic moments, can't see it happening.
My guess, if I had to put cash on it, is that we'll finish between 2nd and 6th. Which of those spots we actually end up getting is vital to how the finals will go for us. If we have a high % it will be more within our control where we land. Unfortunately we're not evolved enough as a sport to deliberately lose in order to finish in a more favourable place, so percentage will again be the deciding factor in the end.
Several times last year it looked like we had "turned a corner" and were going to charge home to cement a top four spot, only to come out the following week and fall in a heap. Saturday's hard fought win looked very much like the kind of game which could turn us from 'dangerous' to 'lethal', but I'll wait and see how we back it up against the 'Ain'ts before getting excited. A big percentage booster would be wonderful, but I suspect that we might feel very happy just to get the four points. If we start with the intensity we had on Saturday, and more importantly kick as straight, we could look at a percentage boost, but I can't see us flogging StKilda, we've had precariously close wins against them the last couple of years.
As to the merits of the percentage system itself, I'm not a big fan. It favours early floggings and low scores. (many will insist that there is no mathematical advantage to early, rather than late trouncings, to those I say look at history). A 200 point game don't help your percentage much if the opposition scored 150, a 100 point game where the opposition got 50 is way better, and a 60-20 scoreline is better again! How does that make sense, particularly when the AFL is going to ridiculous lengths to produce higher scores. There must be a better way to produce a fairer result.
I just haven't thunk t up yet. Ideas?
_________________
"If at first you dont succeed...
... oh who cares, we did it!!!!!"
-me, 2010
"The pies are going to the big dance!"-P.Daicos 2010
Visit My Website! |
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35forever
"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park
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| MattyD wrote: | LOL percentage.
I feel like I am having de ja vu.
We should beat some teams in the lower half of the ladder by bigger margins, with of course the odd game where our boys have a bad day, or the other team plays exceptionally well.
But you have to account for the umpire factor.
As far as I am concerned, every game that we could and should win by 10 goals plus, the umpires intervene and make it impossible.
How do they do that?
By giving our opponents 9 free kicks in the first quarter to our 1. Or by giving us 9 frees for a game and 20 to our opponents.
And there is also of course the Collingwood Forward Line Rule:
no free kicks to Collingwood under any circumstances inside 50, and especially not Cloke.
|
And you ain't just imagining things my friend! The figures (which don't even take into account things like WHERE and for WHAT frees are paid) are definitely on your side. Any measurable way you look at the umpiring Collingwood gets the poorest treatment by a mile. And that’s this season, last season, over the last decade, any way you carve it we get screwed each & every week. Sometimes it costs us games, sometimes it only lowers our margin, sometimes it costs us Brownlows, and sometimes it costs us flags Harmes, '99!)
Now I don't actually believe this is a deliberate or systemic thing - unlike the bias shown by certain individuals (and ex-individuals) within the AFL. I think it’s a simple reflection of the fact that millions of Australians, particularly Victorians, are either Collingwood supporters or hate Collingwood. Umpires are people, and the majority must fall into the group of brain-dead spazzos mentioned above. The figures are simply too stark and consistent for there to be any coincidence or accident.
_________________
"If at first you dont succeed...
... oh who cares, we did it!!!!!"
-me, 2010
"The pies are going to the big dance!"-P.Daicos 2010
Visit My Website! |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | SO, I take it the anti percentage, no problem, brigade, will be content if we miss second or third spot by 1.8 % then. ? True, make the finals first, but what comes next, placings, is very important. Surely ? |
If you are relying on percentage to make a difference at the end of the year, you clearly aren't a good enough team. a serious flag favorite doesn't need to worry about percentage!
_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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collie dog
RIP Shelby 11-10-13
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog
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It won't happen mate. We don't kick enough goals, and we have never been able to crush weak sides. Remember the Giants game last year?
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Rain or hail, I wag my tail |
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collie dog
RIP Shelby 11-10-13
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | Just on %, when you think about it, aussie rules footy, and percentages, is probably one of the fairest ways to work out positions on team ladders, ever devised. The more goals you kick, is balanced against, the goals you get kicked against you, thus working out that the attacking goal scoring team, with great defence, is entitled to be higher placed on the ladder. I cant think of many other games or sports in the world that use this system, and its pretty unique really, when one thinks about it. ! |
Goal difference in soccer is used as a decider. And you don't need to calculate percentage. It's simply goals + or - .
_________________
Rain or hail, I wag my tail |
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yin-YANG
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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| 35forever wrote: | This has obviously been discussed before but I must have missed it. It beggars belief that there are those who believe percentage is unimportant. What!? How can anyone think that? It's like saying that fitness is unimportant, only skills matter. Actually it's like being certain that all sheep have wheels, it's just nonsense! The only way percentage can be irrelevant is if a side wins every game and no one else does. This has happened what? Twice? Once?
Ladder position is decided by two factors, and two factors only (unless you're Carlton and can get a spot in the 8 handed to you by the AFL!). How can anyone suggest one of those factors means nothing without having their mental capacity called into question!? We would be 4th right now if we had the best %. Is 4th not better than 6th!?
Particularly in this season where just 12 points separate 4th from 16th. The reason we have, and were always going to have, a sh|t percentage is the fact that we were, once again handed the sh\tty draw (and yes, it's a mathematically demonstrable fact!)
We were never going to have a % of 150 like the hawks at this vital part of the season. Playing 3 of last years top 4 to start the season makes that all but impossible. For some reason history, if not maths, tells us that huge percentages require big wins in the early part of the season.
Anyway, our effort to get a decent percentage needs to be based not on whalloping the "easy" sides, as easy sides can be mighty hard at various times, but in preventing & reversing our tendency to fade out at the end of games, and learning to press home our advantage once we have the points in the bag. Personally I think one of the roadblocks to a big number in the second column is the coach. It seems to be part of Buckley's game plan this year to build a lead early then basically tread water in a defensive, very conservative (not to mention brain-bustingly boring) style of footy. I guess that the idea is to preserve fitness and prevent injury, while ensuring the 4 points, and I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, even though it's almost unwatchable. It certainly is a fact that points are more important than percentage, but unless we are going to win every game from here on we're going to need percentage to avoid horror match-ups in the finals.
Of course what we saw against West Coast was a very different fish altogether. It was an incredible effort which proved once again that our best can beat anyone else's. West Coast were at their best this week & didn't take home the points. given that we play them at least once more that's a great sign. For the first time in nearly a year we played well in all 4 quarters. If we continue in that vein percentage would indeed be redundant, but I really, even in my most optimistic moments, can't see it happening.
My guess, if I had to put cash on it, is that we'll finish between 2nd and 6th. Which of those spots we actually end up getting is vital to how the finals will go for us. If we have a high % it will be more within our control where we land. Unfortunately we're not evolved enough as a sport to deliberately lose in order to finish in a more favourable place, so percentage will again be the deciding factor in the end.
Several times last year it looked like we had "turned a corner" and were going to charge home to cement a top four spot, only to come out the following week and fall in a heap. Saturday's hard fought win looked very much like the kind of game which could turn us from 'dangerous' to 'lethal', but I'll wait and see how we back it up against the 'Ain'ts before getting excited. A big percentage booster would be wonderful, but I suspect that we might feel very happy just to get the four points. If we start with the intensity we had on Saturday, and more importantly kick as straight, we could look at a percentage boost, but I can't see us flogging StKilda, we've had precariously close wins against them the last couple of years.
As to the merits of the percentage system itself, I'm not a big fan. It favours early floggings and low scores. (many will insist that there is no mathematical advantage to early, rather than late trouncings, to those I say look at history). A 200 point game don't help your percentage much if the opposition scored 150, a 100 point game where the opposition got 50 is way better, and a 60-20 scoreline is better again! How does that make sense, particularly when the AFL is going to ridiculous lengths to produce higher scores. There must be a better way to produce a fairer result.
I just haven't thunk t up yet. Ideas? |
I think if you score 200 points and your opposition score 180 then the game is clearly a 'closer' game compared to when you score 40 and the opposition 20. So the aussie percentage system I believe is better than just points difference and a fairer indication of relative dominance - i.e the second example you were twice as good therefore you get a percentage of 200% in the other example you won by 20 points but it was a scoring feast and the difference was comparatively minor in such a loose high scoring game, so you get a percentage of 111%. Fair enough.
Maybe it does favour strong defensive sides over offensive sides, but shoot-outs like a game of basketball are a big yawn until the last few minutes at best!
_________________
Love us or Hate us... we are Collingwood - you can't ignore the Mighty Magpies!!! |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| 35forever wrote: | This has obviously been discussed before but I must have missed it. It beggars belief that there are those who believe percentage is unimportant. What!? How can anyone think that? It's like saying that fitness is unimportant, only skills matter. Actually it's like being certain that all sheep have wheels, it's just nonsense! The only way percentage can be irrelevant is if a side wins every game and no one else does. This has happened what? Twice? Once?
Ladder position is decided by two factors, and two factors only (unless you're Carlton and can get a spot in the 8 handed to you by the AFL!). How can anyone suggest one of those factors means nothing without having their mental capacity called into question!? We would be 4th right now if we had the best %. Is 4th not better than 6th!?
Particularly in this season where just 12 points separate 4th from 16th. The reason we have, and were always going to have, a sh|t percentage is the fact that we were, once again handed the sh\tty draw (and yes, it's a mathematically demonstrable fact!)
We were never going to have a % of 150 like the hawks at this vital part of the season. Playing 3 of last years top 4 to start the season makes that all but impossible. For some reason history, if not maths, tells us that huge percentages require big wins in the early part of the season.
Anyway, our effort to get a decent percentage needs to be based not on whalloping the "easy" sides, as easy sides can be mighty hard at various times, but in preventing & reversing our tendency to fade out at the end of games, and learning to press home our advantage once we have the points in the bag. Personally I think one of the roadblocks to a big number in the second column is the coach. It seems to be part of Buckley's game plan this year to build a lead early then basically tread water in a defensive, very conservative (not to mention brain-bustingly boring) style of footy. I guess that the idea is to preserve fitness and prevent injury, while ensuring the 4 points, and I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad thing, even though it's almost unwatchable. It certainly is a fact that points are more important than percentage, but unless we are going to win every game from here on we're going to need percentage to avoid horror match-ups in the finals.
Of course what we saw against West Coast was a very different fish altogether. It was an incredible effort which proved once again that our best can beat anyone else's. West Coast were at their best this week & didn't take home the points. given that we play them at least once more that's a great sign. For the first time in nearly a year we played well in all 4 quarters. If we continue in that vein percentage would indeed be redundant, but I really, even in my most optimistic moments, can't see it happening.
My guess, if I had to put cash on it, is that we'll finish between 2nd and 6th. Which of those spots we actually end up getting is vital to how the finals will go for us. If we have a high % it will be more within our control where we land. Unfortunately we're not evolved enough as a sport to deliberately lose in order to finish in a more favourable place, so percentage will again be the deciding factor in the end.
Several times last year it looked like we had "turned a corner" and were going to charge home to cement a top four spot, only to come out the following week and fall in a heap. Saturday's hard fought win looked very much like the kind of game which could turn us from 'dangerous' to 'lethal', but I'll wait and see how we back it up against the 'Ain'ts before getting excited. A big percentage booster would be wonderful, but I suspect that we might feel very happy just to get the four points. If we start with the intensity we had on Saturday, and more importantly kick as straight, we could look at a percentage boost, but I can't see us flogging StKilda, we've had precariously close wins against them the last couple of years.
As to the merits of the percentage system itself, I'm not a big fan. It favours early floggings and low scores. (many will insist that there is no mathematical advantage to early, rather than late trouncings, to those I say look at history). A 200 point game don't help your percentage much if the opposition scored 150, a 100 point game where the opposition got 50 is way better, and a 60-20 scoreline is better again! How does that make sense, particularly when the AFL is going to ridiculous lengths to produce higher scores. There must be a better way to produce a fairer result.
I just haven't thunk t up yet. Ideas? |
Absolutely spot on mate, said it well, hammer, nail, head and BANG  
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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