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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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I quite agree, though I don't see any sycophants and backslappers here or anywhere else.
| holdencaulfield wrote: | | The Magistrate who sentenced Jurrah said he found it strange that the football community keeps giving chances to someone who keeps getting done for domestic violence. I think he meant that they are condoning wife bashing by just sweeping it under the carpet every time he gets out of jail. How many chances does a bloke need to get before society says Enough of this crap, go away and sort yourself out. |
Personally, I think it's strange that the magistrate thinks that the football community "giving him chances" has anything to do with Jurrah's issues with domestic violence. What are they supposed to do, treat him as a leper because he can't get his life together? I'm scratching my head trying to imagine how that's actually supposed to be helpful. I can certainly see how such an approach could be highly unhelpful.
Really, the magistrate should just do his job and hand down an appropriate sentence that carries as much access to and prospect for rehabilitation as possible, and stop pointing fingers at others whose roles in all this are tangential at best.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Last edited by David on Sat May 10, 2014 8:24 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Museman wrote: | | David wrote: |
People often confuse making excuses with understanding the role of causality. Making excuses is saying that Jurrah's background justifies his actions. Nobody here is saying that. Understanding the role of causality, on the other hand, is saying that we need to understand that Jurrah's unbelievably tough upbringing has played a huge role in his problems staying on the straight and narrow, and that we might well be in a similar position if we shared his circumstances. That's why I feel empathy for him without in any way excusing or minimising his actions. |
WTF?  we might not be too David
And this is where your white knight attitude confuses the issue.
Plenty of people from varying racial and social backgrounds have had it tough to very tough to outright horrifying mate, and yet still manage to live a good honest life without straying off the straight and narrow...
While upbringing and social circumstance might prove to be a mitigating factor it does not warrant empathy for one once one chooses, (and that's a very important word because you still have a choice) to cross a certain line.
Where was your empathy for a teenage girl who's upbringing or circumstance may or may not have contributed to her innocently stupid or deeply racial slur? |
Oh gawd, Museman, not to pick on you specifically, but do you know how many basic factual and logical errors you just made in that post? Have you even stopped to think about the difference between choosing a flavour of ice-cream and feeling compelled to lash out to resolve feelings of extreme shame and anger?
For goodness' sake, have some comprehension of statistics if you want to make statistical claims, and have some comprehension of cognitive science if you want to make claims about the human brain. Has it ever even occurred to you that when comparing the psychiatries of two humans you're not actually comparing two identical entities? That's why science uses statistics and identical twin studies in order to investigate these things.
David, you're banging your head against a brick wall. This is a rinse and repeat story which obviously needs a new approach.
Trying to explain the difference between the personal stories we need to tell ourselves to create a sense of efficacy and control, and the broader scientific task of isolating causal factors in order to find solutions to complex problems, is apparently a futile effort in many cases. People struggle to fathom how those two levels of analysis can exist at the same time, and feel threatened by anything which challenges their own stories of efficacy and control.
The best analogy for understanding the magnitude of the task you face is something like this: You're trying to explain relativity and quantum physicsand the difficulty of unifying themto people who are still wanting to burn Galileo at the stake. |
ohh, here we go..... an "expert"
im sorry I appear to have walked into your office and pissed in your flowerpot.
please do point out for me my factual errors??
and the logical errors, point them out too....
and dreams, I been wondering why we have them for quite some time, it seems I've finally come across the person with the answers(and the irrefutable proof)
condescending much?
my inbox awaits.
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
man that term gets overuse on this forum |
Not nearly as much as the technique itself!
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| holdencaulfield wrote: |
Yes it certainly is
All Liam Jurrah has to do is resolve to atone for his past outrageous behaviour and decide to become a useful member of society. He does not need backslappers and sycophants surrounding him |
Is that a new form of therapy or medical intervention? Can you explain the mechanics of how it works, exactly, from resolution to atonement (in the absence of backslappers and sycophants)?
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Museman wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | Museman wrote: | | David wrote: |
People often confuse making excuses with understanding the role of causality. Making excuses is saying that Jurrah's background justifies his actions. Nobody here is saying that. Understanding the role of causality, on the other hand, is saying that we need to understand that Jurrah's unbelievably tough upbringing has played a huge role in his problems staying on the straight and narrow, and that we might well be in a similar position if we shared his circumstances. That's why I feel empathy for him without in any way excusing or minimising his actions. |
WTF? we might not be too David
And this is where your white knight attitude confuses the issue.
Plenty of people from varying racial and social backgrounds have had it tough to very tough to outright horrifying mate, and yet still manage to live a good honest life without straying off the straight and narrow...
While upbringing and social circumstance might prove to be a mitigating factor it does not warrant empathy for one once one chooses, (and that's a very important word because you still have a choice) to cross a certain line.
Where was your empathy for a teenage girl who's upbringing or circumstance may or may not have contributed to her innocently stupid or deeply racial slur? |
Oh gawd, Museman, not to pick on you specifically, but do you know how many basic factual and logical errors you just made in that post? Have you even stopped to think about the difference between choosing a flavour of ice-cream and feeling compelled to lash out to resolve feelings of extreme shame and anger?
For goodness' sake, have some comprehension of statistics if you want to make statistical claims, and have some comprehension of cognitive science if you want to make claims about the human brain. Has it ever even occurred to you that when comparing the psychiatries of two humans you're not actually comparing two identical entities? That's why science uses statistics and identical twin studies in order to investigate these things.
David, you're banging your head against a brick wall. This is a rinse and repeat story which obviously needs a new approach.
Trying to explain the difference between the personal stories we need to tell ourselves to create a sense of efficacy and control, and the broader scientific task of isolating causal factors in order to find solutions to complex problems, is apparently a futile effort in many cases. People struggle to fathom how those two levels of analysis can exist at the same time, and feel threatened by anything which challenges their own stories of efficacy and control.
The best analogy for understanding the magnitude of the task you face is something like this: You're trying to explain relativity and quantum physicsand the difficulty of unifying themto people who are still wanting to burn Galileo at the stake. |
ohh, here we go..... an "expert"
im sorry I appear to have walked into your office and pissed in your flowerpot.
please do point out for me my factual errors??
and the logical errors, point them out too....
and dreams, I been wondering why we have them for quite some time, it seems I've finally come across the person with the answers(and the irrefutable proof)
condescending much?
my inbox awaits. |
I think you'll find there is nothing more condescending on the planet than making pronouncements on other people's lives without having done the due diligence necessary to justify your claims.
You were happy enough to offer your pronouncements on the matter publicly, so forget your inbox. You explain the following to those of us unfortunate enough to have read your superficial nonsense:
1. You said:
"Plenty of people from varying racial and social backgrounds have had it tough to very tough to outright horrifying mate, and yet still manage to live a good honest life without straying off the straight and narrow."
- Which people? How many of them? Which conditions were they diagnosed with, exactly? Which environmental contexts were they in, exactly? What personality resources did they have, exactly? What definitions and statistical data do you have concerning them which gives any meaning at all to your claims, and what argument do you have which demonstrates the relevance of these claims to the person of Liam Jurrah?
2. You said:
"While upbringing and social circumstance might prove to be a mitigating factor it does not warrant empathy for one once one chooses, (and that's a very important word because you still have a choice) to cross a certain line."
- Why does it "not warrant empathy"? Is there some scientific law pertaining to this? Did Jesus tell you it doesn't warrant empathy? Or did you just make that up?
- What do you mean by "choice"? Do you mean like choosing a flavour of ice-cream? Or choosing to sleep for more than two hours a night? Or choosing to write your post in English rather than Tagalog? Or choosing to be a lawyer rather than an Olympic gymnast?
- What is this "certain line"? Where is it and how did you calculate it?
But it's not just you, by any means. It could be any number of posts above.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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holdencaulfield
Joined: 12 Apr 2013
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| pietillidie wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: |
Yes it certainly is
All Liam Jurrah has to do is resolve to atone for his past outrageous behaviour and decide to become a useful member of society. He does not need backslappers and sycophants surrounding him |
Is that a new form of therapy or medical intervention? Can you explain the mechanics of how it works, exactly, from resolution to atonement (in the absence of backslappers and sycophants)? |
Yeh.
1 Stop abusing alcohol
2 Stop bashing women
3 Stop driving whilst not possesing a valid licence
4 Stop driving while being intoxicated
5 Stop getting involved in high speed vehicle pursuits and endangering law abiding members of the community
6 Stop bringing dishonour to his people
I repeat he does not need apologists, yes men, backslappers all over him.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| HAL wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: | | ......... I look down my nose at Liam Jurrah..... |
Why, how tall are you? Liams' over 6'   |
He might be a 6 footer but he is pretty small IMO |
winner!! |
You sound very attractive. |
Thanks Hal
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| You sound very attractive.
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| holdencaulfield wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: |
Yes it certainly is
All Liam Jurrah has to do is resolve to atone for his past outrageous behaviour and decide to become a useful member of society. He does not need backslappers and sycophants surrounding him |
Is that a new form of therapy or medical intervention? Can you explain the mechanics of how it works, exactly, from resolution to atonement (in the absence of backslappers and sycophants)? |
Yeh.
1.........
I repeat he does not need apologists, yes men, backslappers all over him. |
Pray tell HC,
Where in this thread has anyone been a "backslapper, yes-man or an apologist for Liam's behaviours?".
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| holdencaulfield wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: |
Yes it certainly is
All Liam Jurrah has to do is resolve to atone for his past outrageous behaviour and decide to become a useful member of society. He does not need backslappers and sycophants surrounding him |
Is that a new form of therapy or medical intervention? Can you explain the mechanics of how it works, exactly, from resolution to atonement (in the absence of backslappers and sycophants)? |
Yeh.
1 Stop abusing alcohol
2 Stop bashing women
3 Stop driving whilst not possesing a valid licence
4 Stop driving while being intoxicated
5 Stop getting involved in high speed vehicle pursuits and endangering law abiding members of the community
6 Stop bringing dishonour to his people
I repeat he does not need apologists, yes men, backslappers all over him. |
Gees it's a long list
Let's hope the three months incarceration gives him the shock he needs
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| watt price tully wrote: |
I was making fun of HC's use of language (as if that needed spelling out): "I look down my nose....." I wasn't criticising HC.
HC, yourself & others don't have a monopoly on interpreting LJ's actions as anything less than serious. All here agree with the seriousness of that. |
Ok I'll lighten up, (throwing up the pizza last night probably helped )
Sorry, cheers, bananas
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| HAL wrote: | | You sound very attractive. |
I like Hal, I think he should stay
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| What if it didn't happen?
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| watt price tully wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: |
Yes it certainly is
All Liam Jurrah has to do is resolve to atone for his past outrageous behaviour and decide to become a useful member of society. He does not need backslappers and sycophants surrounding him |
Is that a new form of therapy or medical intervention? Can you explain the mechanics of how it works, exactly, from resolution to atonement (in the absence of backslappers and sycophants)? |
Yeh.
1.........
I repeat he does not need apologists, yes men, backslappers all over him. |
Pray tell HC,
Where in this thread has anyone been a "backslapper, yes-man or an apologist for Liam's behaviours?". |
The idea here is to never explain if things happened, why things happened, or how they're supposed to be rectified; just insist they did and can happen. The skill is to lift one's leg strategically, and then lower it in a stomping action, simultaneously raising one's voice in knowing defiance.
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holdencaulfield
Joined: 12 Apr 2013
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| watt price tully wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: |
Yes it certainly is
All Liam Jurrah has to do is resolve to atone for his past outrageous behaviour and decide to become a useful member of society. He does not need backslappers and sycophants surrounding him |
Is that a new form of therapy or medical intervention? Can you explain the mechanics of how it works, exactly, from resolution to atonement (in the absence of backslappers and sycophants)? |
Yeh.
1.........
I repeat he does not need apologists, yes men, backslappers all over him. |
Pray tell HC,
Where in this thread has anyone been a "backslapper, yes-man or an apologist for Liam's behaviours?". |
Where in this thread have I said anyone here has? AFAIK there is only one person here who knows him personally. In any case Jurrah is unlikely to read this where he is now residing.
The backslapping occurs when he he goes to a footy game and is idolised for his football ability and no one dares mention his crimes.
When he says to a reporter "I am hoping to make it back to the AFL" and the reporter just laps it up. Does anyone here really believe that any AFL club would waste a Draft Pick on someone whose life has completely spiralled out of control? Port Adelaide declined to draft him and that was long before his history of bashing women
If he comes out of jail and stays out of trouble and stops bashing women then in about 3 or 4 years time someone may give him another go. (if he is lucky)
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