 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
|
| Post subject: Another stolen generation? |  |
|
Thus claims John Pilger in this article:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/mar/21/john-pilger-indigenous-australian-families
| Quote: | | Today, the theft of Aboriginal children – including babies taken from the birth table – is now more widespread than at any time during the last century. As of June last year, almost 14,000 Aboriginal children had been "removed". This is five times the number when Bringing Them Home was written. More than a third of all removed children are Aboriginal – from 3% of the population. At the present rate, this mass removal of Aboriginal children will result in a stolen generation of more than 3,300 children in the Northern Territory alone. |
While I admire Pilger's tireless advocacy for human rights, I think he's way off the planet here. Children are removed from abusive and negligent family situations now and will be in the future so long as abuse and neglect persists. In this day and age, unlike the earlier half of the 20th century, this has nothing to do with race: social services will intervene where they deem it necessary. The fact that a disproportionately high number of Aboriginal families are involved shouldn't surprise us any more than the fact that a disproportionate number of Aboriginal people encounter poverty, substance abuse and crime and die young. These are all by-products of existing social issues. So, Pilger needs more proof than he's presented here to make this (extraordinary) assertion convincing.
There is one issue in his favour, however: a friend on Facebook argues that most parents whose children are removed will have knowledge of their whereabouts and access to them, unlike the mother in this story. Can anyone who works in this field (or knows a bit about it) shed light on this?
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
|
|
|
 |
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I read that and I quickly decided he was someone long on rhetoric and faux outrage and short on facts. Very emotive and totally one sided.
In the absence of any first hand knowledge or facts, I tend to be with you on this David, I don't believe there's anything other than good intentions. Whether all the individuals involved in the system have those good intentions is something I can't comment on, but all the ones I've met who've done time up in remote communities working with indigenous people have done it for the right reasons.
If that many kids are being removed from their homes, that points (IMO) to an endemic problem that needs to be fixed so that the kids are safe in their own home and don't need to be removed.
In all instances, the safety and welfare of the child should take precedence over all other issues.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Perhaps I can add another factless post hoping Tannin might do the honors for us!
David, seeing as you started the thread....
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
|
|
|
|
watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | I read that and I quickly decided he was someone long on rhetoric and faux outrage and short on facts. Very emotive and totally one sided.
In the absence of any first hand knowledge or facts, I tend to be with you on this David, I don't believe there's anything other than good intentions. Whether all the individuals involved in the system have those good intentions is something I can't comment on, but all the ones I've met who've done time up in remote communities working with indigenous people have done it for the right reasons.
If that many kids are being removed from their homes, that points (IMO) to an endemic problem that needs to be fixed so that the kids are safe in their own home and don't need to be removed.
In all instances, the safety and welfare of the child should take precedence over all other issues. |
The issue is that it occurs throughout white & black communities ie child welfare issues & the intervention only occurred for blacks.
If we don't have a racism or any other word one might use then why is it that:
Aboriginal Australians die so much younger than the rest of the polulation?
Are imprisoned at much higher rates than that of whites?
Have suicide rates so much higher than that of whites?
Have substance abuse issues much higher than that of whites?
Have (the newer one these days) have foetal alcohol syndrome much higher than whites?
Have mcuh worse housing than that of whites?
Have much less access to clean water & fresh fruit & veges than that of whites?
Have much less access to medical services than that of whites?
Have health problems that match the poorest of 3rd world countries would be ashamed of & are easilly treatable. Eg trachoma.
Taking kids etc is merely another in a long list.
Everyone I'd imagine supports the idea that we must act to protect the children. It's just it's applied differently to different groups & aboriginality whether we like it or not is a factor.
What was missing from his piece were references IMO.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough†Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Sat Mar 22, 2014 6:08 pm; edited 3 times in total |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| What colour are your eyes? How did you decide? |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | I read that and I quickly decided he was someone long on rhetoric and faux outrage and short on facts. Very emotive and totally one sided.
In the absence of any first hand knowledge or facts, I tend to be with you on this David, I don't believe there's anything other than good intentions. Whether all the individuals involved in the system have those good intentions is something I can't comment on, but all the ones I've met who've done time up in remote communities working with indigenous people have done it for the right reasons.
If that many kids are being removed from their homes, that points (IMO) to an endemic problem that needs to be fixed so that the kids are safe in their own home and don't need to be removed.
In all instances, the safety and welfare of the child should take precedence over all other issues. |
The issue is that it occurs throughout white & black communities ie child welfare issues & the intervention only occurred for blacks.
If we don't have a racism or any other word one might use then why is it that:
|
No issues with the examples you gave, but your correlation needs work. To pin those things on racism (by any other word) when similar data could be had from poor people of any race is just being silly.
Yes there is a problem, no denying that. Lots of people, money and resources are being expended trying to help fix that problem, and largely failing. They're treating symptoms, not the problem.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | I read that and I quickly decided he was someone long on rhetoric and faux outrage and short on facts. Very emotive and totally one sided.
In the absence of any first hand knowledge or facts, I tend to be with you on this David, I don't believe there's anything other than good intentions. Whether all the individuals involved in the system have those good intentions is something I can't comment on, but all the ones I've met who've done time up in remote communities working with indigenous people have done it for the right reasons.
If that many kids are being removed from their homes, that points (IMO) to an endemic problem that needs to be fixed so that the kids are safe in their own home and don't need to be removed.
In all instances, the safety and welfare of the child should take precedence over all other issues. |
The issue is that it occurs throughout white & black communities ie child welfare issues & the intervention only occurred for blacks.
If we don't have a racism or any other word one might use then why is it that:
|
No issues with the examples you gave, but your correlation needs work. To pin those things on racism (by any other word) when similar data could be had from poor people of any race is just being silly.
Yes there is a problem, no denying that. Lots of people, money and resources are being expended trying to help fix that problem, and largely failing. They're treating symptoms, not the problem. |
We'll have to agree to disagree.
I think there's always been racism in Australia which is at times either overt or covert. The settling of Australia through to now. This includes how "we" allocate resources & how it's used.
That's especially true for Aboriginal Australians.
The social indicators I've pointed out are for Aboriginal Australians . That they can be applied to some other groups is neither here nor there.
I work with a big burly maori guy naturally from NZ. He is amazed how many white Australians are oblivious to racism in Straya. This is not to say other countries aren't either. This is merely a comment on Australia & Australia's relations with Aboriginal Australians. The racism is reflected in such poor outcomes as noted above.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough†Kinky Friedman |
|
|
|
|
David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I think the discrepancies you list definitely attest to past wrongs (some malicious, some negligent) but also stuff that was simply out of any Australian government's control; simply a byproduct of colonisation and the way colonisation occurred.
On the other hand, I don't really believe that they attest to ongoing oppression, though that's not to say that it doesn't exist (the intervention still seems to be deeply misguided and unnecessarily authoritarian). How can we state this with any confidence? Well, ask yourself this: if every Australian woke up tomorrow and decided to treat Aboriginal people with compassion and respect, and governments rejected all oppressive policies in favour of progressive alternatives, would the massive problems faced by remote Indigenous communities instantly disappear? How about in 10 years? 20? I suspect we all know the answer to that, unfortunately. Something much deeper is going on here.
That is not to say that governments and government agencies couldn't be doing better. I'm sure there is room for improvement. But I do believe that the vast majority of people involved are trying to do the best they can with the data and the processes available to them. The idea that we have a phalanx of social workers in 2014 stealing children from capable Aboriginal parents for whatever nefarious reason strikes me as ludicrous.
Pilger seems to be well-connected; surely he could rustle together a few lawyers and expose this new genocide for what it is. In the meantime, all we have is his (very one-sided) word against that of the many people actually working in the field and the government agencies that monitor them. Is it all a conspiracy? Or is the child removal that's taking place simply a sadly necessary and wholly undiscriminating response to the abuse and neglect that inevitably accompany poverty and social dysfunction? As the saying goes, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, and Pilger has provided us with nothing but a couple of anecdotal claims and some statistics that, out of context, paint a very misleading picture.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
|
|
|
|
1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
|
| Post subject: | |
|
These posts are the perfect example of why this issue hasn't been corrected over the past 30/40 years.
Your all busy discussing(wanking on) what the Author's real motives are, or what is the correct terminology, or what Government department should be dealing with this. All the while these families are torn apart and people like you who may be able to help are busy having a wankfest, sorry talkfest spending the funding on meetings and conferences rather than fixing the problem.
Now I appreciate the problem has to be talked about in order for a plan to be formulated and implemented, but 60% of the talkfest and the funding will be taken up with this kind of Bullshit when it shouldn't be.
As far as I can see it's people such as yourselves who are part of the problem even if you personally have nothing to do with it at all. Your encouragement of the wank fests adds nothing to fixing the issue. |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Perhaps there are a few exceptions. |
|
|
|
|
Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I have nothing of substance to say on the main issue. It's not an area of which I have any particular knowledge or experience. Others here are much better fitted to comment on it than I am.
| 1061 wrote: | These posts are the perfect example of why this issue hasn't been corrected over the past 30/40 years.
Your all busy discussing(wanking on) what the Author's real motives are, or what is the correct terminology, or what Government department should be dealing with this. All the while these families are torn apart and people like you who may be able to help are busy having a wankfest, sorry talkfest spending the funding on meetings and conferences rather than fixing the problem.
Now I appreciate the problem has to be talked about in order for a plan to be formulated and implemented, but 60% of the talkfest and the funding will be taken up with this kind of Bullshit when it shouldn't be.
As far as I can see it's people such as yourselves who are part of the problem even if you personally have nothing to do with it at all. Your encouragement of the wank fests adds nothing to fixing the issue. |
^ And meanwhile, you are wanking over the wankers. Your entire post attacks other people for trying, however ineffectually, to come to grips with the problem, but does not even try to address the issue. All you can do is carp and criticise.
If you have something worthwhile to add to the discussion, add it.
If you did, people might even think your other comments were worth considering rather than rejecting with the contempt they, on face value, seem to deserve.) If you can only hurl shit at every other person (unlike you, all of them trying in their own way to contribute something of worth) why should anyone listen when you tell them how stupid they all are?
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
|
|
|
|
Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
The only aboriginals I know are business owners from NSW, and a family at my daughter's school who are certainly better off than I am, dad is well spoken, wears a suit and drives a nice car. The people who make this a race issue rather than a cultural issue are the problem. not the solution.
The whole Stolen Generation issue has caused such fear amongst the social services community that Aboriginal children haven't been removed from their families when a White/Asian/Jewish/Arab/African child would certainly have been. To now start more hysteria because white guilt advocates want to play a numbers game is doing nothing but harming vulnerable children. The best outcomes for Aboriginal communities will come from assimilation into the dominant culture, going to school, making sure their children go to school, getting sober where that's an issue etc etc, and the same could be said for any community or families that aren't engaging with society.
Now how you go about attempting to integrate people who were moved into shitty towns in remote areas with no infrastructure and are experiencing all the negative issues on a generational basis I have no idea. Having entire communities of uneducated drug addicts is only going to create more uneducated drug addicts and those solutions have been beyond a whole generation of people and multiple governments of both persuasions who want to help. |
|
|
|
|
David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| 1061 wrote: | These posts are the perfect example of why this issue hasn't been corrected over the past 30/40 years.
Your all busy discussing(wanking on) what the Author's real motives are, or what is the correct terminology, or what Government department should be dealing with this. All the while these families are torn apart and people like you who may be able to help are busy having a wankfest, sorry talkfest spending the funding on meetings and conferences rather than fixing the problem.
Now I appreciate the problem has to be talked about in order for a plan to be formulated and implemented, but 60% of the talkfest and the funding will be taken up with this kind of Bullshit when it shouldn't be.
As far as I can see it's people such as yourselves who are part of the problem even if you personally have nothing to do with it at all. Your encouragement of the wank fests adds nothing to fixing the issue. |
This is a discussion forum. This is what we do here. Sure, if I was sufficiently convinced that something terrible was happening under the government's watch, I'd get out and protest—but I would need discussion, data, empirical evidence to come to that conclusion. You need discussions like this to get to that point.
It's true that, unless we're actively engaged with Indigenous welfare (that is, on the ground in Indigenous communities like the social workers demonised by Pilger are), we're all dilettantes on this topic. But we're all voting citizens too, and I think most of us care enough about Indigenous welfare—those of us who stop to think about it, anyway—that we'd happily vote in a better alternative if it was presented.
You say that we're all sitting around idly chatting while Indigenous families are torn apart. But would a knee-jerk reaction be any better? What if child removal (as one might understandably presume in the modern Australian context) is a necessary last resort aimed at protecting the vulnerable and abused? Isn't it kind of vital to pick the right side on this issue? Pick the wrong one and you're fighting against progress; fighting against the very people who are trying to make the best of a terrible situation.
So, yeah, we can either pick the right side and support it as citizens, taxpayers and/or dissidents, or sit back in our armchairs and remain ambivalent. Doing the former requires education and discussion, and that's what I'm trying to achieve with this thread. If you've got a problem with that then perhaps you'd prefer we stick with the latter. Personally, I think there's already way too much apathy regarding Indigenous affairs in Australia.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
|
|
|
|
Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | These posts are the perfect example of why this issue hasn't been corrected over the past 30/40 years.
Your all busy discussing(wanking on) what the Author's real motives are, or what is the correct terminology, or what Government department should be dealing with this. All the while these families are torn apart and people like you who may be able to help are busy having a wankfest, sorry talkfest spending the funding on meetings and conferences rather than fixing the problem.
Now I appreciate the problem has to be talked about in order for a plan to be formulated and implemented, but 60% of the talkfest and the funding will be taken up with this kind of Bullshit when it shouldn't be.
As far as I can see it's people such as yourselves who are part of the problem even if you personally have nothing to do with it at all. Your encouragement of the wank fests adds nothing to fixing the issue. |
This is a discussion forum. This is what we do here. Sure, if I was sufficiently convinced that something terrible was happening under the government's watch, I'd get out and protest—but I would need discussion, data, empirical evidence to come to that conclusion. You need discussions like this to get to that point.
It's true that, unless we're actively engaged with Indigenous welfare (that is, on the ground in Indigenous communities like the social workers demonised by Pilger are), we're all dilettantes on this topic. But we're all voting citizens too, and I think most of us care enough about Indigenous welfare—those of us who stop to think about it, anyway—that we'd happily vote in a better alternative if it was presented.
You say that we're all sitting around idly chatting while Indigenous families are torn apart. But would a knee-jerk reaction be any better? What if child removal (as one might understandably presume in the modern Australian context) is a necessary last resort aimed at protecting the vulnerable and abused? Isn't it kind of vital to pick the right side on this issue? Pick the wrong one and you're fighting against progress; fighting against the very people who are trying to make the best of a terrible situation.
So, yeah, we can either pick the right side and support it as citizens, taxpayers and/or dissidents, or sit back in our armchairs and remain ambivalent. Doing the former requires education and discussion, and that's what I'm trying to achieve with this thread. If you've got a problem with that then perhaps you'd prefer we stick with the latter. Personally, I think there's already way too much apathy regarding Indigenous affairs in Australia. |
Is there any reasonable basis for a belief that social workers are part of the solution, rather than part of the problem? |
|
|
|
|
David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
|
| Post subject: | |
|
This might provide a broad overview:
http://www.humanrights.gov.au/news/speeches/role-social-workers-human-rights-workers-indigenous-people-and-communities
| Quote: | Social work is a profession that is built on, according to the AASW’s Code of Ethics:
the pursuit and maintenance of human well-being. Social work aims to maximize the development of human potential and the fulfillment of human needs.
The Code of Ethics goes on to state that two of the key values and principles are: human dignity and worth; and social justice. Human dignity and worth means that social workers respect the inherent dignity and worth of every person and respect the human rights expressed in the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Social justice encompasses the satisfaction of basic needs; fair access to services and benefits to achieve human potential; and recognition of individual and community rights. |
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
