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holdencaulfield
Joined: 12 Apr 2013
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Maybe someone in Jail can put LJ onto the writings of Albert Camus. The Outsider/ The Stranger would be a perfect novel for him to read.
Ultimately we are responsible for our own destiny. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| holdencaulfield wrote: | | Ultimately we are responsible for our own destiny. |
I think you seriously overestimate the amount of control we have over our own lives. There are not just external factors, but many internal factors to cope with. If you're mentally ill, can you just snap your fingers and make yourself well? If you have had a long history of dysfunctional relationships, can you suddenly become a good spouse, parent or friend? And if you try to take the long, arduous route, how unbreakable can your sense of perseverance ever really be? Do you have control over your own mental strength?
Our popular media fetishise tales of overcoming obstacles, but they do so because these are exceptional stories. Most people from working class backgrounds do not become Prime Minister. Most heroin addicts do not become millionaires. It is not because it is impossible for these things to happen; it is because one needs very strong willpower, strong support networks, etc. to overcome the odds in situations like that. What if you lack that willpower? What if you have no support? Do you get to choose what amount of determination or courage you have?
What I think is most important here is that Jurrah (and other convicted criminals) are told that it is possible to turn their lives around. Not told that it's "their own responsibility" or any such nonsense, but simply that rehabilitation is possible, that it's very much in their own interests and that there will be support provided throughout the entire process. Convince them on an intellectual level, provide them with the resources to get to that goal and they can do the rest. I don't think there's any need to ply them with fairytales of personal responsibility.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Breadcrawl
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
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| David wrote: |
you have to accept that. |
He doesn't have a choice?
_________________
they can smell what we're cookin' |
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Breadcrawl
Joined: 13 Oct 2007
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| David wrote: | | You're entitled to not give a shit about Jurrah or what he's going through right now. That's your prerogative. |
So he has a choice?
_________________
they can smell what we're cookin' |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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He does. But not a 'free' one. 
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Museman wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | What a massive load of nonsense over the last few pages.
The "choice" I believe Museman was referring to, was the one between right and wrong, not ice cream flavours or choosing a suitable career.  (please correct me if I'm off the mark there Museman).
The rest is just garbage. |
Nah, you're on the money KM.
But that's not what PTID is after, what he wants is a philosophical debate on free will, thus his over analysis of my use of "choice".
I worded my sentence wrong and the nit pickers found the hole.
I should have worded it that "He/we at least have the illusion of choice"
I'm going to exercise my illusion and leave it alone, it's an age old unresolved debate fought by people with far superior weapons for the fight than me. |
Wrong and wrong.
David has answered this well above, and I have already alluded to my views, namely that we need to distinguish between our need to believe in change personally (the stories we need to tell ourselves), and our need to find "engineering handles" at other levels of analysis when trying to help others or solve broader societal problems.
This is not about "nitpicking"; it's about factual, hard scientific advancement in the cognitive sciences and medicine which offer better ways of understanding and solving problems.
And you don't need to have resolved the dilemma of free will to recognise these things anymore than you need to have unified quantum physics and relativity to avoid an oncoming car.
What we do need to do, however, is incorporate the last two decades or so of cognitive science into our now outdated understanding of the "mind", free will, rational choice, legal responsibility, and so on. We may have hit a wall when it comes to feeling like we have free will but not being able to explain it convincingly or even locate it physically, but we do know as David says that there are all manner of forces that curtail (the received urban definition of) "choice"and severely so in many cases.
Helping individuals work through the dysfunctions which plague our species surely involves applying an empathy and thought process to the task which demonstrates the sort of behavioural control we're really capable of.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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King Monkey
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Location: On a journey to seek the scriptures of enlightenment....
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Ok.
So all the diatribe from PTID, David, and others, may to an extent explain "life's circumstances". Can accept that. Only to an extent!!!!!!!!
But there are about 3 of you referring to this.
You are having a different conversation.
How is any of it relevant to the moment where a woman was punched, and more extraordinarily, when she was kicked on the ground. The second part is a considered action.
There is a CHOICE between right and wrong.
Liam Jurrah chose wrong, and he's paying for it with a custodial sentence.
_________________
"I am a great sage, equal of heaven.
Grow stick, grow.
Fly cloud, fly.
Oh you are a dee-mon, I love to fiiight." |
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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^^^
Agree completely. Yes, life does deal many a shitty hand...Yes, our choices are very much shaped by and conditional on our environment...but ffs we're not talking about the sort of obstacles one has to overcome to become PM here or to rise to be the CEO of a large company...the bar we are talking about is pretty bloody low - don't beat your wife or loved ones...That's a pretty simple and cut and dried choice to make I would have thought...and not one that requires a PhD in cognitive science or decision-making to understand. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| King Monkey wrote: | How is any of it relevant to the moment where a woman was punched, and more extraordinarily, when she was kicked on the ground. The second part is a considered action.
There is a CHOICE between right and wrong.
Liam Jurrah chose wrong, and he's paying for it with a custodial sentence. |
Because that moment did not occur in a vacuum. If you are at all serious about preventing such crimes in the future or seeing people like Jurrah rehabilitated into decent members of society, you'll want to understand the causes behind what happened and how they can be addressed in future. Otherwise, all you've got its the ham-fisted response of "throw him in jail and let's hope he's learned his lesson by the time he comes out". There is, thankfully, a better way.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Member 7167 
"What Good Fortune For Governments That The People Do Not Think" - Adolf Hitler.
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Location: The Collibran Hideout
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| David wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | How is any of it relevant to the moment where a woman was punched, and more extraordinarily, when she was kicked on the ground. The second part is a considered action.
There is a CHOICE between right and wrong.
Liam Jurrah chose wrong, and he's paying for it with a custodial sentence. |
Because that moment did not occur in a vacuum. If you are at all serious about preventing such crimes in the future or seeing people like Jurrah rehabilitated into decent members of society, you'll want to understand the causes behind what happened and how they can be addressed in future. Otherwise, all you've got its the ham-fisted response of "throw him in jail and let's hope he's learned his lesson by the time he comes out". There is, thankfully, a better way. |
I agree David. Liam is a victim of circumstances. His history dictated that this would have occurred and he had no choice in the matter. We should explain to him the errors of his way and send him back home so that the can have another crack at his wife. Simple - all fixed.
I can imagine the problems that individuals of Liam background experience. These has been going on for many years and the efforts of successive governments and many well intentioned individuals and organisations has not been able to make much a of a dent in problem. As a child I spent considerable time with my uncles' family in Bourke, NSW and he spend considerable time attempting to improve the lives of the local indigenous population. I have vivid memories of his activities.
Irrespective of what others have put in place the ultimate decision has to be made by the individual and for them to take the opportunities available. Liam has had many opportunities but has not had the understanding or strength of character to make some of the right choices. Liam even had the support of one of our own in Nicks who I am sure did his utmost to avoid this situation.
A very sad and unfortunate outcome but to some extent avoidable. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Member 7167 wrote: | | David wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | How is any of it relevant to the moment where a woman was punched, and more extraordinarily, when she was kicked on the ground. The second part is a considered action.
There is a CHOICE between right and wrong.
Liam Jurrah chose wrong, and he's paying for it with a custodial sentence. |
Because that moment did not occur in a vacuum. If you are at all serious about preventing such crimes in the future or seeing people like Jurrah rehabilitated into decent members of society, you'll want to understand the causes behind what happened and how they can be addressed in future. Otherwise, all you've got its the ham-fisted response of "throw him in jail and let's hope he's learned his lesson by the time he comes out". There is, thankfully, a better way. |
I agree David. Liam is a victim of circumstances. His history dictated that this would have occurred and he had no choice in the matter. We should explain to him the errors of his way and send him back home so that the can have another crack at his wife. Simple - all fixed.
I can imagine the problems that individuals of Liam background experience. These has been going on for many years and the efforts of successive governments and many well intentioned individuals and organisations has not been able to make much a of a dent in problem. As a child I spent considerable time with my uncles' family in Bourke, NSW and he spend considerable time attempting to improve the lives of the local indigenous population. I have vivid memories of his activities.
Irrespective of what others have put in place the ultimate decision has to be made by the individual and for them to take the opportunities available. Liam has had many opportunities but has not had the understanding or strength of character to make some of the right choices. Liam even had the support of one of our own in Nicks who I am sure did his utmost to avoid this situation.
A very sad and unfortunate outcome but to some extent avoidable. |
Your first paragraph didn't seem to follow the other two paragraphs which I found to be very good reading.
David, nor PTID, me or others have said let him off etc.
Many of us do say let him face the music, let him receive due punishment. No one single poster here at all believes that what Jurrah did was good, can be condoned or supported or left unpunished.
Disagreement has occurred over the context in which it has occurred - call it choice & what constitutes choice if you like and now it seems what type of punishment actually does the job. That is, part punitive part rehabilitative as most punishments should be. As you know better than me, this is complicated by traditional law vs our form of legal penalty.
If one suggests that there is relative choice i.e. the choices I get as a white middle class employed & educated male is logically a whole lot wider than the choices that working class less educated males get. This is a means of explanation not mitigation.
Apart from class, I haven't even mentioned colour, ethnicity or gender as intervening variables that affect choice. I also didn't grow up in a culture of alcohol (although if you would have seen me in my late teens / early 20's - that is another matter). These factors exist.
Again this in now way forgives Jurrah for his horrendous actions, for his violence and for his god awful behaviour that all of us believe needs due punishment.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: | | Ultimately we are responsible for our own destiny. |
I think you seriously overestimate the amount of control we have over our own lives. |
I think you underestimate it.
People can change their behavior if they want to. Yes there's lots of factors at play, maturity being at least one, but it's able to be done.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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collie dog
RIP Shelby 11-10-13
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog
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Stick this in VPT.
_________________
Rain or hail, I wag my tail |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | holdencaulfield wrote: | | Ultimately we are responsible for our own destiny. |
I think you seriously overestimate the amount of control we have over our own lives. |
I think you underestimate it.
People can change their behavior if they want to. Yes there's lots of factors at play, maturity being at least one, but it's able to be done. |
Of course. But that change takes effort. And varying degrees of it depending on circumstance.
For some, the "right path" comes almost naturally, they'd never consciously chosen it. For others, they need to actually learn what the path is and then how to stay on it.
A simple example: I've never drank alcohol, not once. Not because I consciously abstain every day of my life, but because I've always hated it and what I'd seen it do to those around me. I don't need to think about it, the opposite path has just never crossed my mind. It's why I feel no "moral" superiority to a drunk, it's not something I've ever had to deal with. I can easily see how someone who's never known anything but drinking being a regular part of their lives, could find it difficult to change. I couldn't even imagine myself as a drinker and I'm sure the reverse is the same for others. Most of us lead lives of built up inertia with any change only coming about from seismic shocks. Even then there are many who'll fall back into old habits after a time.
Making a conscious decision to change a lifelong habit or way of thinking is tough and requires significant motivation and willpower. In a lot of the situations we've been discussing, neither of these are easy to come by. Depression, anxiety, low self-esteem often co-exist with these problems and can make the effort to change seem insurmountable. This supports the supportive route far more than the beat down path.
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Well done boys! |
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