Feminism
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Where did you hear that? |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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That's quite a self-contradictory article that does little to support its own argument. Obviously women's right to vote was passed into law by men, just as Row vs. Wade was adjudicated by a man. But is the writer seriously suggesting that social agitation by suffragettes and their male supporters played no role in achieving this reform? If so, he does very little to back up that claim, apart from a vague argument that protestors were seen as troublemakers. Isn't it ever the case? Also, the growth of suffrage from a select few to all adult members of society is widely acknowledged; what isn't demonstrated is that votes for women would have been inevitable (or, at least, not considerably deferred) without social agitation.
Indeed, it seems pretty obviously true that, had there been almost total ambivalence towards voting rights amongst women, it would have never happened. Rarely is a right granted without being fought for; as a libertarian, I would have thought you'd be the first to acknowledge that. _________________ "Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Rights are not 'granted' they are only ever taken away.
The right to vote was denied to not only women, but as the article said most of the men who were fighting and dying in Europe. Societal views were changing, and protest movements have a much smaller impact than they'd like to think. Without a broad desire for change, it doesn't happen. Protest is so amazingly ineffective without some kind of force to back it up (like strike action for example). |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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There's just nothing to argue about when you deal with such ridiculously broad history; it's all storytelling, and could all be reduced to economics and then down to psychiatry and geography or genetics and ultimately physics if you want to get serious about it.
But Wokko isn't doing that; he just wants to put these folk in their place because they bother him. Wokko, what bothers you about the feminist story so much? What menacing power have you detected which needs unraveling here?
ISIS I can understand. Pedophilia in Christian churches. Authoritarianism in the former Soviet states. Corrupt and anti-competitive manipulation of the economy. The appalling loss of species. Far right Asian nationalism. The plight of first Australians. The homicide rate of Latino women. The aftermath of the invasion of Iraq. The obscenity of dynastic US politics. Or any number of personal interests we all have, such as TP and her concern for animal cruelty, Stui's significantly justified contempt for unions, David's interest in state surveillance, my hatred of vested interests slowing change, or what have you.
But no, you're going with feminism as something which needs dealing with.
Please tell me what I ought to be worried about here because I'm just not seeing it. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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^ We've been here before. _________________ “I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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I have a need to find the truth, and when propaganda has won out in the historical narrative I try to follow the thread of truth and pull on it until the facade unravels. The feminist myth and the effect it has on society today is one such propaganda tale.
There are plenty more historical untruths that are widely accepted such as Senator McCarthy and his fight against Communist infiltration. I don't like to just let orthodoxy have its sway.
"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act." |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Wokko wrote: | I have a need to find the truth, and when propaganda has won out in the historical narrative I try to follow the thread of truth and pull on it until the facade unravels. The feminist myth and the effect it has on society today is one such propaganda tale |
Can you explain the "effect" of the "myth"? _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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pietillidie wrote: | ^To fill you in on the broader context, I use the word "sincere" a lot now based on the central Confucian tenet of "sincerity", used widely in Asian culture, and heavily in Korea. It is often translated as "true mind" or "deep mind" by non-native English speakers, and gets to a genuine emotional will that is sincere because it is an essential, apolitical truth about a person's character, rather than a perfunctory, face-saving expression.
As such, it is one of the most important and central ideas in human thought on the planet today, and has a particular pertinence (and often poignance) in the age of PR and detached Internet debate.
A lot of pop-level debate about these topics is insincere in the sense that there is no will to connect at a deeper level with people's problems, but rather an effort to minimise or deny them, or to react to someone else's strained claims of hardship. (Indeed, the need to express or deny hardship is almost an Olympic event). Such reactionary exchange constitutes the hot air of that 1% you refer to.
IMO your comment on contemporary feminism was not necessary and also extremely partial in any case; much feminist work is devoted to providing support for practical transformative efforts in both theory and social action, while much of it is hardly well-financed, yet contributes generously to causes such as the rights of the gay and transgender communities, single mothers, and the poor and marginalised generally.
[I don't doubt your essential goodness or Wokko's, Mugwump, and have no trouble at all imagining you being one of the sincere people in the office! I do think you both waste time fighting blog demons, though.] |
A reasonable and good-hearted response, thanks. What you describe sounds more like empathy than sincerity to me, but I'm ready to learn from Kung-fu-tse
In case it was not clear, I think feminism was one of the greatest and most worthy movements in history, and we are all (men and women) far richer for it, in many, many ways.
I just think that most of its work is done, or at least the issues that remain (domestic violence, pornography inter alia) are more complicated. As a result it is now more prone to hijack by special pleaders who make a tenuous link with their personal agenda. "Isms" which fight for group power rather than individual needs soon become mere orthodoxies once their main goal is achieved. And orthodoxy then brings down coercion and bullying of those with dissenting views.
PS Apart from this, I don't think I've ever read a blog ! I read Prospect magazine, the Economist, the Times and the FT... perhaps I need to read a blog or two ! _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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pietillidie wrote: | Wokko wrote: | I have a need to find the truth, and when propaganda has won out in the historical narrative I try to follow the thread of truth and pull on it until the facade unravels. The feminist myth and the effect it has on society today is one such propaganda tale |
Can you explain the "effect" of the "myth"? |
"Asking such questions PTID means you might be entering:"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b5aW08ivHU _________________ “I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Yes, please tell me. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Still how long? That David is a cool dude. |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008 Location: The 18
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The irony of a bunch of men arguing about feminism is hilarious. _________________ He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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swoop42 wrote: | The irony of a bunch of men arguing about feminism is hilarious. |
Why ? Does feminism only affect women ? _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Mugwump wrote: | swoop42 wrote: | The irony of a bunch of men arguing about feminism is hilarious. |
Why ? Does feminism only affect women ? |
Nope, it sure seems to rile some men up!
I'm with swoop, it's a very funny thread! _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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