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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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It's quite difficult to see how that can possibly be accurate. He had just about a career-best game last Friday night and the team kicked 7 goals. Whatever his role is, it doesn't achieve anything.
Anyway, I was responding to a comment that proposed that Cox replace Grundy in the ruck. My point, which is self-evidently correct, is that Cox cannot ruck for the majority of an AFL game. It isn't like he was starring in the forward line. He played just 11 games, kicked 14 goals, had 3 goal assists and averaged 6 disposals per game. Even so, he wasn't put into the ruck, even when Grundy could barely run. |
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5 from the wing on debut
Joined: 27 May 2016
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Pies4shaw wrote: | It's quite difficult to see how that can possibly be accurate. He had just about a career-best game last Friday night and the team kicked 7 goals. Whatever his role is, it doesn't achieve anything.
Anyway, I was responding to a comment that proposed that Cox replace Grundy in the ruck. My point, which is self-evidently correct, is that Cox cannot ruck for the majority of an AFL game. It isn't like he was starring in the forward line. He played just 11 games, kicked 14 goals, had 3 goal assists and averaged 6 disposals per game. Even so, he wasn't put into the ruck, even when Grundy could barely run. |
The issue with our scoring isn't Cox. The issue is what is going on around him and further down the ground. Our two greatest wins in the last 5 years have been largely attributable to Cox. |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013 Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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^ Cox also wanders too far from goal to help us with kick outs and can't get to where he needs to be... ie the top of the goal square. _________________ All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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PyreneesPie
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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5 from the wing on debut wrote: |
The issue with our scoring isn't Cox. The issue is what is going on around him and further down the ground. Our two greatest wins in the last 5 years have been largely attributable to Cox. |
Agree - this is a fact. The value of Coxy deep forward is huge, so I reckon he should be stationed there whenever possible.
An issue I believe is that Grundy can't do a similar role in the forward line when Cox relieves him in the ruck, so Cameron needs to be in the team too to do the relief ruck work, so that Coxy can stay put? Where Grundy goes when resting who knows? Wing? CHB? |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013 Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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Pretty much PP - also means Cox doesn't have to be our kick out target.
As to where Grundy rests, I guess the bench... although I'd like it to be down at the local internet cafe refunding some of that 1 mil per year until he learns to rest in the fwd line _________________ All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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^ ^ ^
Yes and the kick out target isnt quite as relevant as a tactic in 2021 because the kick out has now added a potential 15 - 20 metres onto it with the new rule ( until it’s eventually enforced properly )
Teams are trying to get out the back of the opposition rather than have the play held up at around the 50 metre defensive arc.
Being forced to kick from the goal square was simply to easy for defences to set up against. It’s one of many reasons why the stoppages were so low after round one. |
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PyreneesPie
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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Pies2016 wrote: | ^ ^ ^
Yes and the kick out target isnt quite as relevant as a tactic in 2021 because the kick out has now added a potential 15 - 20 metres onto it with the new rule ( until it’s eventually enforced properly )
Teams are trying to get out the back of the opposition rather than have the play held up at around the 50 metre defensive arc.
Being forced to kick from the goal square was simply to easy for defences to set up against. It’s one of many reasons why the stoppages were so low after round one. |
This is a oood point I reckon Pies 2016. I hope it works out the way you suggest, as it always seemed to be subtracting from the forward line to have one of the taller forwards (Coxy, Checkers) lead up to the wing to help with the transition. Once upon a time, Grundy was significant in that regard, but that seems to be missing from his game of late.
Of course, it would help enormously if the mids did their work in that respect of getting the ball from backline to forward line too. Another reason why we need the elusiveness and skill of Daics on the wing I reckon!!!! Ridiculous to leave him lamenting in the forward pocket, but we shall see. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | ^ Cox also wanders too far from goal to help us with kick outs and can't get to where he needs to be... ie the top of the goal square. |
I agree, partly due to too many passengers, have a look at my shots last week, a low ball, big 7 foot cox bends over to get it, while about 5 players watch him.
For the life of me I can’t see how JT or WHE. Get a game this week, JT any week. _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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piedys
Heeeeeeere's Dyso!!!
Joined: 04 Sep 2003 Location: Resident Forum Psychopath since 2003
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Not meaning to piss on tonight's epic win, but... it was still f^cking painful to watch the bounce-downs and centre clearances wasn't it...? _________________ M I L L A N E 4 2 forever |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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funny how much better Grundy looks when the mids actually move their arses and get to the ball! _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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eddiesmith
Lets get ready to Rumble
Joined: 22 Nov 2004 Location: Lexus Centre
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think positive wrote: | funny how much better Grundy looks when the mids actually move their arses and get to the ball! |
You mean when Grundy actually hits the ball rather than meekly drops it at his feet?
At least his hitouts went further than Sidebottoms kicks last night! |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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I know P4S and K like your stats, so both of you can make of this what you will
Since 2018, the team that has won the clearances / stoppages has gone on to win the game 58 % of occasions.
It’s a slight advantage but hardly a major determinant as to whether you go on to win the game or not.
So by extension, whether you rate Grundys hit outs or not, I’m not convinced a ruckmans hitouts have a major bearing on the outcome of the game. Conversely, Grundy at his around the ground ( midfielder ) best does have a significant outcome on any match.
I have long advocated that clearances receive more attention than they deserve because most are executed under pressure and invariably make their way to an opposition player. The most important component of a successful clearance ( chain ) is the second possession which is usually received under less pressure and allows the game to open up.
Statistically since 2018, only 37 % of all scores have come from stoppages / clearances, while 59 % of all scoring has come from intercepts.
In a nutshell, even if you win more clearances than the opposition, unless that initial clearance makes its way to a team mates advantage, you are effectively inviting the opposition back into the game. And it’s at this point, the rest of our midfielders now enter the conversation.
There are clearances and there are clearances but the ones that matter most are the ones that form the second possession in the chain.
Finally, Richmond’s three flags were ALL won the back of losing more clearances than their opponents each week ( as an overall average )
Stats courtesy of Stats central |
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Magpietothemax
magpietothemax
Joined: 27 Apr 2013
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Pies2016 wrote: | I know P4S and K like your stats, so both of you can make of this what you will
Since 2018, the team that has won the clearances / stoppages has gone on to win the game 58 % of occasions.
It’s a slight advantage but hardly a major determinant as to whether you go on to win the game or not.
So by extension, whether you rate Grundys hit outs or not, I’m not convinced a ruckmans hitouts have a major bearing on the outcome of the game. Conversely, Grundy at his around the ground ( midfielder ) best does have a significant outcome on any match.
I have long advocated that clearances receive more attention than they deserve because most are executed under pressure and invariably make their way to an opposition player. The most important component of a successful clearance ( chain ) is the second possession which is usually received under less pressure and allows the game to open up.
Statistically since 2018, only 37 % of all scores have come from stoppages / clearances, while 59 % of all scoring has come from intercepts.
In a nutshell, even if you win more clearances than the opposition, unless that initial clearance makes its way to a team mates advantage, you are effectively inviting the opposition back into the game. And it’s at this point, the rest of our midfielders now enter the conversation.
There are clearances and there are clearances but the ones that matter most are the ones that form the second possession in the chain.
Finally, Richmond’s three flags were ALL won the back of losing more clearances than their opponents each week ( as an overall average )
Stats courtesy of Stats central |
Very illuminating post, P2016. Sheds a new light on everything. The key stat might be the possession after the clearance...how many of these actually go to you, rather than the opposition. As you say, centre clearances are always made under extreme pressure. And, as you say, what comes into play as the decisive factor is the ability of the midfield to bring pressure in the centre square. If Grundy can reinvent himself as a midfielder in the split second after the bounce, and contribute to pressurising the opposition at that point, he is playing a massive role...even if he does not win the ruck contest. _________________ Free Julian Assange!!
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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The improvement from Sier and the inclusion of Sidey led to a significant boost to our overall midfield performance. Grundy will never be a great tap ruckman like Len Thomson or Max Gawn, but his follow up and ruck roving role makes him a force to be reckoned with. |
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PyreneesPie
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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RudeBoy wrote: | The improvement from Sier and the inclusion of Sidey led to a significant boost to our overall midfield performance. Grundy will never be a great tap ruckman like Len Thomson or Max Gawn, but his follow up and ruck roving role makes him a force to be reckoned with. |
Yep, summed up really well RB.
I find it intriguing as to why a ruckman can "win" plenty of hit outs, but not be able to direct them to the right place, like the above Pies great you mention. So, just musing out loud here:
* Is it a lack of direct communication with mids before EACH bounce or throw up - like the ruckman telling them where he intends to place it and one of the mids putting themselves there, on the run if possible? Is it the mids not listening to the communication of the
ruckman?
* Is it a physiological limitation in the ruckman, like not having wrists that are strong enough or flexible enough to flick it with force and in the desired direction once they make contact with the ball? So the hit out is won, but not decisively enough and just falls to the feet of the ruckman. (If so, strap and support the wrists).
Is it a lack of peripheral vision in the ruckman not being able to assess the position of his
mids in a split second?
* Is it psychological? A mental block with the ruckman being subconsciously wary of punching the ball into the clear for fear it will go to an oppo player? Or a positively reinforced reaction that if he lets the ball drop to this feet, he can have a second go at it and follow up, which is as effective as winning the hit out anyway?
* Is it the lack of physical strength of the mids? They are simply unable to push the opposition aside to get to where they want to be?
* Is it set play in that both mids and ruckman have been seduced into having all the mids rush into the feet of the ruckman, instead of some actually moving away from him into the clear? A sort of vicious cycle initiated by the ball dropping to the feet of the ruckman in the first place and then being perpetuated. This is perhaps where a player like Sier could become the answer, by forcing his way through to be directly positioned below/beside the ruckman at the immediate completion of the ruck contest.
Alernatively, a decisive knock straight to a mid in the clear would soon overcome this habit!!
From memory, Len Thompson's brilliant rucking was often directed to players some distance off from him in the clear. My memories are fresh of Swanny streaming past on the perimeter and collecting a knock out from Jolly on the run.
Anyway, it's an interesting conundrum that's been with us ever since Grundy became our first ruck. Perhaps, the solution is to accept his limitations and make the most of his strengths, which you mention above RB. Have Grundy push it down to himself so he can become an instantaneous, huge ruck rover!!!! If he can continue to improve his marking and work around the ground, he'll be back to providing his best value to the Pies. |
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