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Boot
Joined: 22 Feb 2013
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I have watched Grundy's ruckwork since his debut and have been impressed with his tap work on numerous occasions in being able to control the ball from both Centre bounces and Boundary Line Throw Ins. Hence I have no doubt that he has the ability to win the tap to Collingwood's advantage more often than not.
However, the game that stands out where he repeatedly tapped boundary line throw ins to his feet was the 2019 Preliminary Final loss to Greater Western Sydney. That final quarter charge by Collingwood, where the ball along with all the GWS team seemed to be in the Collingwood forward 50 for 90% of the time yet frustratingly was a slug feast where Collingwood failed to score the last punch to take the lead before the final siren, needed Grundy to change tactics from dropping the ball at his feet where 4 - 6 GWS players swooped to hold the ball in a contested rugby type scrum time and time again. I can only assume that Grundy was following team rules and playing to agreed tactics.
Hence I don't think the problem is with Grundy's ability and skill to tap the ball to advantage but the problem is with the tactics being pursued by the coaching team to get the most out of our midfield team at stoppages.
I remain optimistic that with the departure of Treloar, who was not a help in the midfield stoppages, the development and improved resilience of Brayden Sier and now increased time in the middle for the bigger bodies of Jack Crisp & Jordan DeGoey that Grundy's ruck dominance will equate to a greater clearance rates for Collingwood this year. However, to do so then the midfield team and more importantly coaches need to develop a more flexible and dynamic game plan that mixes up their approach so as not be too predicable for our opposition to counter. _________________ Collingwood Domination. Envy of the Nation! |
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KickTruly
Joined: 06 Oct 2020
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watt price tully wrote: |
The midfield too were better. Sier needs to back himself more I reckon. He's a booming kick & should use that more rather than almost reflexively handball it away. However he needs to kick it quickly; as quick as his lightening handballs |
First he needs to get the ball.
Why was he nicknamed "The Bear" and not "The Bull"
Bears are big and slow and hibernate, there's your answer! _________________ Think MAGPIES...winning the Flag this year! |
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AnthonyC
Joined: 09 Aug 2002 Location: Melbourne, Victoria
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Someone needs to brush up on their animal knowledge. _________________ Go Pies! |
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5 from the wing on debut
Joined: 27 May 2016
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KickTruly wrote: | watt price tully wrote: |
The midfield too were better. Sier needs to back himself more I reckon. He's a booming kick & should use that more rather than almost reflexively handball it away. However he needs to kick it quickly; as quick as his lightening handballs |
First he needs to get the ball.
Why was he nicknamed "The Bear" and not "The Bull"
Bears are big and slow and hibernate, there's your answer! |
Maybe he was caught shitting in the woods. |
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think better
Joined: 16 May 2005 Location: Adelaide
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5 from the wing on debut wrote: | KickTruly wrote: | watt price tully wrote: |
The midfield too were better. Sier needs to back himself more I reckon. He's a booming kick & should use that more rather than almost reflexively handball it away. However he needs to kick it quickly; as quick as his lightening handballs |
First he needs to get the ball.
Why was he nicknamed "The Bear" and not "The Bull"
Bears are big and slow and hibernate, there's your answer! |
Maybe he was caught shitting in the woods. |
Does a bear do that? _________________ I think therefore I think - I think |
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Rosolino_Leone
Joined: 22 Mar 2021
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Whatever happened to a ruckman just punching the $!#$ out of the ball? _________________ “You can’t head down to Smith St and buy confidence, can you? There’s no confidence shop.” |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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The teams all recruited midfield coaches who decide how they want the team to play - as to which, see Boot's post above. |
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neil
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Location: Queensland
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Rosolino_Leone wrote: | Whatever happened to a ruckman just punching the $!#$ out of the ball? |
Coaches hate the idea the ball ends up somewhere. No-one can predict where so the opposition have a chance to get the ball. Coaches prefer possession over risk _________________ Carlscum 120 years being cheating scum |
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PyreneesPie
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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I appreciate that some coaches might prefer to see the safety of the ball dropping to the feet of the ruckman , but I'm not sure that this results in a greater number of clearances than hitting the ball to the outside.
Depends on what direction the ball is punched out I suppose. Last round, it was an absolute delight to see Nic Nat's hit outs going straight into the hands of an Eagles mid, running forward. He gave a master class in showing how it's done. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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You did notice that Footscray won the clearances repeatedly, sharking his hitouts? He had 40 hitouts and 11 (ground) clearances. If you take out his 11 clearances where the ruck wasn't won and he followed up on the ground, his team actually lost the ruck clearances 41 to 25. Sheed had 11 clearances and Kelly 5. After that, their mids barely touched the ball at the coal-face. For Footscray, Liberatore and Macrae each had 9 clearances, Dunkley 6 and Bont 5. Since Martin and English managed just 7 hitouts to advantage between them, that's a hell of a lot of first use of the ball obtained by Footscray from Natanui's and Vardy's hitouts.
By way of comparison, Grundy had 18 hitouts to advantage to Natanui's 15 and 7 score involvements to Natanui's 8. In our game, because we kept Carlton from 1st use of the ball, 9 of the top-10 score involvement numbers were Collingwood players. In Natanui's game, the top 2 were both Footscray players (14 apiece), next came Cripps and Kelly with 9, then there was a bunch of 6 players with 8 (2 West Coast and 4 Footscray). |
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PyreneesPie
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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Pies4shaw wrote: | You did notice that Footscray won the clearances repeatedly, sharking his hitouts? . |
I don't really see how your statistics show that Grundy's performance was superior to Nic Nat's or vice versa???? I gather this is why you're trotting them out at this point? Trying to defend Grundy, because I mentioned that Nic Nat displayed some brilliant rucking in his game? Very protective! (Hit a nerve, did it? )
All a ruckman can do is give his mids a fighting chance of getting to the ball in order to win it and then clear it. IMHO, directing the ball straight towards them or into their path gives them the best chance of doing this, providing the mids are up to the challenge. This, of course, cannot always be guaranteed. Clearances are not always a direct correlation to the quality of a ruckman's performance in winning the hit out decisively and directing it to where it needs to go (for many, rather obvious reasons).
Perhaps you are trying to demonstrate that the immediate result of a ruck contest has no influence on clearances? (Most likely this is true ). Nevertheless, it looks absolutely magical when a ruckman's hitout goes straight to the waiting hands of one of his mids, who then clears it, which happened a number of times with Nic Nat. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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PyreneesPie wrote: | Pies4shaw wrote: | You did notice that Footscray won the clearances repeatedly, sharking his hitouts? . |
I don't really see how your statistics show that Grundy's performance was superior to Nic Nat's or vice versa???? I gather this is why you're trotting them out at this point? Trying to defend Grundy, because I mentioned that Nic Nat displayed some brilliant rucking in his game? Very protective! (Hit a nerve, did it? )
All a ruckman can do is give his mids a fighting chance of getting to the ball in order to win it and then clear it. IMHO, directing the ball straight towards them or into their path gives them the best chance of doing this, providing the mids are up to the challenge. This, of course, cannot always be guaranteed. Clearances are not always a direct correlation to the quality of a ruckman's performance in winning the hit out decisively and directing it to where it needs to go (for many, rather obvious reasons).
Perhaps you are trying to demonstrate that the immediate result of a ruck contest has no influence on clearances? (Most likely this is true ). Nevertheless, it looks absolutely magical when a ruckman's hitout goes straight to the waiting hands of one of his mids, who then clears it, which happened a number of times with Nic Nat. |
No, that wasn't my point. My point is that Natanui looks great a couple of times a game when he hits the ball to competent midfielders on the move but when you actually look at the outcomes of what he does, it turns out that he doesn't do achieve as many useful things as people think compared o other less "classical" players. He's a great stylist. Not an especially effective ruckman. Also, because he can only stay on the ground for about 70% of a match, at most, West Coast hsve to field a second ruckman. So, they actually play a man short in their team. Of course, you've got to have enough competent midfield runners to take advantage of being able to select an additional runner. We don't have that at the moment. |
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Rosolino_Leone
Joined: 22 Mar 2021
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^
Let me just throw a stat out there for you guys.
Ben Cunnington has averaged more clearences in his career than guys like Buckley, Swan and Judd _________________ “You can’t head down to Smith St and buy confidence, can you? There’s no confidence shop.” |
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PyreneesPie
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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Pies4shaw wrote: |
This is why the ball gets dropped close to Grundy so often. It is a deliberate coaching strategy designed to limit (not exclude) the number of times we are killed on the outside at a stoppage. It's coaching suicide, if you think about it - on the one hand, have a high-stoppage game plan. On the other, try to limit the damage that occurs after the stoppage because you have only 2 midfielders who can handle the ball adequately and none with adequate leg speed......
A fine example of why the ball is best brought to ground at Collingwood occurred at one of the last centre clearances. Game in the balance, Gruny gets the hit out and puts it out to Sier's advantage, running directly towards our goal. Sier gets beaten for pace, the Brisbane player runs past him, gathers the ball and it goes straight down for a Brisbane shot on goal. If Grundy had hit that to the favour of, say, Wellingham, Collingwood would have had the shot on goal. Speed over the first couple of paces is something Collingwood badly lacks. That and a genuinely powerful defensive mid who forces the opposition wide when they do get their hands on the ball - we haven't had that since Luke Ball retired.
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Yep, after last night, I think these are really valid points.
So recruiting needs to focus on getting top notch clearance players, or perhaps we already have one within our untried group of players?? |
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PyreneesPie
PyreneesPie
Joined: 22 Aug 2014
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Rosolino_Leone wrote: |
We are 1 'elite' clearence player away from going places.
- Ben Cunnington must not be overlooked in the off-season, he will be the only elite clearence player available. If we want a significant upgrade surely we need to consider Cunnington. However I feel the club will target a more Collingwood type of plaer in Dyson Heppel |
Sadly, his time as a top quality clearance mid may be limited, as he is 30 years old and suffering from an injury toll, including difficulties with recovering from concussion. |
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