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Simply_Brutal
Joined: 29 Jun 2013
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| Mr Miyagi wrote: | | Malthouse was 15 years ago. And he would always play a newbie for one game and then drop them back to the magoos for months without giving them at least two weeks in a row to settle. Honestly, if anyone at the club starts reminiscing “Malthouse did it better, we need to go back to his coaching style” then we’re �$%$ed. |
Right, because that’s what I said?
People here reference the 1920’s but you’re spitting the dummy because of a constructive discussion around selection decisions and a reference to 14 years ago. Good job. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| The problem is not our 'deteriorating' veterans, but rather our lack of potential A grade talent in the magoos. |
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LaurieHolden 
Floreat Gymnorhina tyrannica
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Victoria Park
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| What'sinaname wrote: | From 2015 - 2019, the only player (not FS) from the National Draft still on the list is IQ.
From 2020 - only McCreery has played a solid amount of games . We traded away Henry.
We seem to pick up players through trading who are doing well, but our inability to get meaningful contributions through the National Draft is a concern. |
| Quote: | | What'sinaname wrote: WarburtonLad, Our draft / trade strategy has been hit or miss since 2021..We've got 5 games from our entire 2021 National Draft selections and 1 game from the entire 2022 National Draft selection. |
| What'sinaname wrote: | | ^ The drafting issues go back quite a few years and coupled with an intention to trade away Rd 1 picks, we are in a precarious position where have have very thin depth, coupled with an aging side. This isn't going to fix itself in the short term either. |
That now moves us on from the 2021-2022 draft years you specified. So let's now look at the years you refer to ~
2015 AFL Draft and Trade Period (10 players in) https://www.draftguru.com.au/clubs/collingwood#2015
115 picks 30 trades 45 (avg)
Adam Treloar Traded for #2016R1 (Collingwood) + #7 + #65 (with #2 AA40: 2016, 2017, 2019.
James Aish Traded for #26 + #2016R2 (St Kilda)
Jeremy Howe Traded for #29 + #50 + Kennedy (with Toumpas) AA40: 2017; Prem: 2023
Organic picks remaining #32, #58, #63, #65.
National Draft pick 32 Brayden Sier
National Draft pick 58 Tom Phillips
National Draft pick 63 Rupert Wills
National Draft pick 65 Ben Crocker
Rookie Draft pick 25 Josh Smith
Rookie Draft pick 55 Tim Golds
Rookie Draft pick 64 Darrean Wyatt
5 of the Top 20 went to Sydney, GWS & Lions Academy picks (2 in the top 10)
6 players > pick #32 have gone on to play >100 games.
6 players from the rookie draft have gone on to play > 100 games.
So for 2015, without applying hindsight, was pick #7 and our 2016 first rounder too great a price to play for a player that has gone on to play 238 games? 3x AA squads while he was on our list. To date he's played 238 games.
2015 was a year we also traded in Jeremy Howe and James Aish.
2015 was about list requirements, not looking through to 2024.
I'll complete the 2016 + lists as we go. But what I'm getting to is, has our list management been that poor? Most of what you are referring to is what we are lacking in 2024. Hindsight from 2024 is subjective. Sure, we could have gone about it a different way.
Isolating the organic or National Draft is only part of a Clubs list management strategy. There's one deciding factor in all of this, and as it's been suggested, he should not have been allowed to over-ride the board or football departments list management decisions. It didn't happen during the Malthouse years, as Malthouse was able to stand his ground.
I'd suggest Hine has kept his position because the Club knows it has one of the best in the competition.
_________________
"The Club's not Jock, Ted and Gerry" (& Eddie)
2023 AFL Premiers
Last edited by LaurieHolden on Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:27 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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What'sinaname 
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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^ Our trading has been mostly successful. Our drafting has been a disaster. We've whiffed at almost every draft pick...couldn't even land a speculative pick.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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inxs88
Joined: 17 Aug 2014
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Schoenamkers shall become a top player and at 194cm, versatile back/wing with booming kick and intercept ability, regret vibes are coming.
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I love the Pies, hate Carlscum |
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Pies2016
Joined: 12 Sep 2014
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| inxs88 wrote: | | Schoenamkers shall become a top player and at 194cm, versatile back/wing with booming kick and intercept ability, regret vibes are coming. |
Well the good news is, sixteen other clubs would also suffer from “ regret vibes “ around the same time. |
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LaurieHolden
Floreat Gymnorhina tyrannica
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Victoria Park
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| What'sinaname wrote: | | ^ Our trading has been mostly successful. Our drafting has been a disaster. We've whiffed at almost every draft pick...couldn't even land a speculative pick. |
Trading and drafting aren't mutually exclusive. Honestly, how would you attempt to get into the draft without trading? Just more sensational adjectives thrown in for effect.
Throw away lines that our drafting hasn't been up to scratch is pointless without comparable analysis.
_________________
"The Club's not Jock, Ted and Gerry" (& Eddie)
2023 AFL Premiers
Last edited by LaurieHolden on Tue Apr 30, 2024 12:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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Conjecture snd hindsight are the biggest thoughts in drafting
In the mid 90’# when I was transferred from News head office to be part of a rugby league team they took over during the super league debacle I was privy to loads of information
At that stage they were looking to start a national draft (same basis basically as the AFL draft)
In preparation we were sent to the USA to speak with NFL clubs on there thoughts, planning and mindset on drafting
We general consensus was that drafting was truly a lottery in many ways.
The biggest thing they allowed for was most top #10 draft picks had a career average of just over 3 years (at that point in time 1997)
They believed more in trading for proven player than risk a high draft pick.
Mostly they used there top draft picks for a QB
It doesn’t mean they are right or wrong it just what they learned from there experiences. |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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So further to the above I thought I would do some research and see how it panned out here
Listed below based in champion data information is the top 20 players from 2011-2020 for highest rated player average per game minimum 100 games (midfielders/ on ballers/ wing)
Rank. Name.
1. G.Ablett jnr
2. P.Dangerfield
3. D.Swan
4. D.Martin
5. N.Fyfe
6. P.Cripps
7. S.Pendlebury
8. J.Selwood.
9. L.Neale
10. M.Bontepilli
11. T.Mitchell
12. D.Beams
13. L.Parker
14. J.Kennedy
15. S.Mitchell
16. A.Gaff
17. R.Slaone
18. D.Hannebury
19. T.Cotchin
20. T.Boak.
Side note there was 2 other current or former Collingwood players who made the top 50
Jack Crisp and Adam Treloar
I’ll go back now and find all there draft positions to see how it equates to ranking |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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Rank. Name. Draft position
1. G.Ablett jnr. 40 F/S
2. P.Dangerfield. 10
3. D.Swan. 58
4. D.Martin. 3
5. N.Fyfe. 20
6. P.Cripps. 13
7. S.Pendlebury 5
8. J.Selwood. 7
9. L.Neale. 58
10. M.Bontempilli. 4
11. T.Mitchell. 21 F/S
12. D.Beams. 29
13. L.Parker. 40
14. J.Kennedy. 40 F/s
15. S.Mitchell. 36
16. A.Gaff 4
17. R.Sloane. 44
18. D.Hannebury 30
19. T.Cotchin. 2
20. T.Boak. 5
Only 8 top 10 picks on the list
3 Father/Son selections
11 players drafted in 1st
9 players drafted in 2nd round or later
So for that period it was nearly a 50/50 split between 1st round picks and later picks turning out to be champions of there era
Make of it what you will but high draft pick doesn’t mean success in my mind |
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LaurieHolden
Floreat Gymnorhina tyrannica
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Victoria Park
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| Quote: | What'sinaname wrote:
^ Our trading has been mostly successful. Our drafting has been a disaster. We've whiffed at almost every draft pick...couldn't even land a speculative pick. |
2016 AFL Draft and Trade Period (12 players in) https://www.draftguru.com.au/clubs/collingwood#2016
127 picks 39 trades 51 (avg)
Lynden Dunn Traded for #47 (with #51)
Will Hoskin-Elliott Traded for #2017R2 (Collingwood) Prem: 2023
Chris Mayne Unrestricted Free Agent
Daniel Wells Unrestricted Free Agent
1st Round pick traded to GWS as part of the 2015 Adam Treloar trade.
Organic picks remaining #30, #35, #50, #57.
National Draft pick 30 Sam McLarty
National Draft pick 35 (FS) Callum Brown
National Draft pick 50 Kayle Kirby
National Draft pick 57 (FS) Josh Daicos AA: 2023; B&F: 2023; AA40: 2022; Prem: 2023
Rookie Draft pick 7 Mitch McCarthy
Rookie Draft pick 24 Henry Schade
Rookie Draft pick 40 Liam Mackie
Rookie Draft pick 51 Max Lynch
4 of the Top 20 went to GWS & Suns picks (2 in the top 10)
7 players > pick #32 have gone on to play >100 games. (inc. Josh Daicos - and every Club will be wondering how Nick Larkey slipped to #73.
2 players from the rookie draft have gone on to play > 100 games.
So for 2016, without applying hindsight, was 2015 pick #7 and our 2016 first rounder too great a price to play for a player that has gone on to play 238 games? 3x AA squads while he was on our list. To date he's played 238 games.
To date there has been 1 AA player to come from the 1st Round.
_________________
"The Club's not Jock, Ted and Gerry" (& Eddie)
2023 AFL Premiers |
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memoryofmchale
Joined: 12 Feb 2024
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| LaurieHolden wrote: | All good in theory until the real reason he slipped to pick 62 and was lucky to be picked up at all emerges.
Basically his character assessment saw clubs close the book. |
That is correct. Across high school, expelled due to discipline issues and bullying, terrible reputation in the area. Recruiters phoned up the school that kicked him given it had numerous potential draftees in 2023 and 2024 (two were drafted first-round). The report was not positive and keep in mind the place dealt with a young Tarryn. Then there was his alcohol stupidity. Pressuring underage teammates to drink as a leader against explicit team rules not to.
He lasted less than two months and was in strife once again with alcohol I believe. Wasn't a fitness issue.
He has talent but not at the cost. Bullet dodged. This is like his third or fourth major chance and he's not even 20. |
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LaurieHolden
Floreat Gymnorhina tyrannica
Joined: 22 Feb 2009
Location: Victoria Park
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For the record, we've had 13 Top 10 picks since 1999 (24 years) ~
Under the Malthouse years ~
Malthouse landed at the CFC in 2000, hot off the 1999 draft where we had landed ~
1999 National Draft pick 1 (Priority), Josh Fraser
1999 National Draft pick 7 Danny Roach
His first organic top 10 pick ~
2000 National Draft pick 3 Alan Didak
But it was another 4 years before we had another Top 10 pick.
2001 > pick #10
2002 > pick #10
2003 > pick #10
2004 National Draft pick 10 Chris Egan
2005 National Draft pick 2 (Priority) Dale Thomas (awarded clubs draft picks if they lost key players to retirement or free agency - as compensation for the loss of Chris Tarrant, who had left Collingwood to join the Fremantle)
2005 National Draft pick 5 Scott Pendlebury
2006 National Draft pick 8 Ben Reid
2006 National Draft pick 10 Nathan Brown
2007 R1 pick >10 traded
2008 > pick #10
2009 > pick #10
2010 R1 trade bundle
2011 R1 trade bundle
2012 > pick #10
Under the Buckley years ~
2013 National Draft pick 6 Matthew Scharenberg
2013 National Draft pick 10 Nathan Freeman
2014 National Draft pick 5 Jordan De Goey
2014 National Draft pick 9 (FS) Darcy Moore
2015 R1 traded
2016 R1 traded
2017 National Draft pick 6 Jaidyn Stephenson
2018 >#10
2019 R1 traded (Brisbane / Beams)
2020 > pick #10
2021 > pick #10
2022 > pick #10
2023 > pick #10
Outside of the salary cap debacle in 2018, the 2013 organic draft is the one that sticks out as still having an impact to this day.
Pick #6 Scharenberg was touted as a schoolboy Wayne Carey, whose career was later cruelled by injury and pick #10 Freeman simply remains a bust, albeit another career constrained by injury.
_________________
"The Club's not Jock, Ted and Gerry" (& Eddie)
2023 AFL Premiers
Last edited by LaurieHolden on Tue Apr 30, 2024 4:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I've heard the line "draft best available, trade for needs" but do clubs really do that?
I assume all clubs go into draft night with a list of players ranked 1-100 or whatever, but surely those rankings must take into account need as well as the attributes the club rates more highly than others?
If you've got pick 10 and your turn comes up, the next best kid on your list is a classy inside mid, but you already have plenty of classy inside mids, what you need are outside speed and talls who can mark at either end.
It just happens that a few places down your list is a speedy outside mid and next spot down a 198cm KPP with sticky hands who can play either end. Do you really stick to your rankings and take the inside mid or go for needs and take one of the other 2?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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doriswilgus
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Location: the great southern land
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | The problem is not our 'deteriorating' veterans, but rather our lack of potential A grade talent in the magoos. |
I agree 100%.I’ve seen several VFL games this year,and every time I watch the team play,I feel more worried about the future of the team.Try as I might,I just can’t see many or any of the current crop of players m the reserves making the grade in the AFL in future years.It’s got to be a huge concern for the club. |
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